PDA

View Full Version : A Movie x 2



probshaw
1st July 2007, 19:11
Short video of the BB flying but its the dual seater. Same type wing though.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_DPirH22tvI

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=QeOvDYnEq6M

PS Dont blame me for the music!

paultheparaglider
2nd July 2007, 08:37
Looks nice. When you say the same type wing, do you mean the same size 11 sq m wing. Or a larger version. Also, looked like it had a trim wheel.

mdphillips1956
2nd July 2007, 13:17
Hello Paul,

Some nice shots of a very clean and capeable looking wing... yes I wondered about was it really the same wing, but of course it must be a smaller or much softer one used for light/SSDR type trikes.

Remind me how light the SSDR version is going to be; I would like a modern but very cheap wing with a little more area and a bit less weight than my 145 square feet 40kg Photon.

There seems to be a rule, rather like there being "no substitute for cc's" with cars; that power required to keep a given weight in the air has more to do with simple wing area than it has to do with superb aerodynamic shapes... my Hiway Skytrike had 9 hp and a single surface wing with no preformed battens, and big exposed cross tubes dragging in the wind; yet it had a respectable climb.

Mark P............

Bob Hood
2nd July 2007, 19:25
Mark,

I think you will find that the Trya wing is the same for both Section S and SSDR. The only difference is the trike unit. For the Section S version it is fitted with a single seat variant of the trike you saw in the videos, but in the SSDR viersion it has the stripped down trike shown on Paul's website. However, the wing remains the same.

Best regards,

Bob Hood.

probshaw
2nd July 2007, 21:05
Cheers Bob you got in one!

Hi P C , I think that you have seen the trim wheel on the camara carrying trike, thats a pegasus I think. Some of the video shows the slightly larger 14 sq mtr wing which is of identical design but has an extra panal in the middle.
Handleing is said to be about the same but the 14 sq mtr wing is slightly slower at the top end. Both are light in pitch and roll.

Mark, Take a look at www.soloflightltd.com and all the details for the wing are there. 11 sq mtrs and 39 kgs wieght.

All the best Paul

mdphillips1956
2nd July 2007, 22:48
Hello Paul R,

The larger sail with a lighter airframe might well make a good light trike wing; it looks a tidy unit.

But do you mean there is not a heavier wing for dual use Paul?

Mark P.........

probshaw
3rd July 2007, 19:16
The manufacturer makes 11 14 and 16 sq mtr wings all are used in the dual configaration., but the 11 is aimed at single seat and is uk approved. The 14 and 16 are not approved. I did look at the 14 for ssdr but the increase in wieght + 6kg negates the advantage of being able to use the full 115kg. So you are better of staying with the smaller and faster 11 mtr. The 11 mt wing has a good glide ratio anyway 12 tp 1, so it is not a brick if it go's quiet.

Cheers Paul.

mdphillips1956
3rd July 2007, 23:17
Hi Paul R,
The 11 metre may have an excellent glide ratio, but in being quite small it might also have a fairly high sink rate, and correspondingly low climb rate... without a good lump of engine behind it... maybe 377 Rotax stuff rather than Radne raket.
What does the 16 work out at in square feet: I knew the Chaser as being 10 square metres but all my other wings I knew in square feet.
Mark.............

paultheparaglider
4th July 2007, 00:05
Mark,

1 sq m = 10.764 sq ft. Chaser is 108 sq ft. 16 sq m = 172 sq ft.

Paul

probshaw
4th July 2007, 00:17
It was my understanding that a glide ratio of 12 to 1 means that you go 12 feet forward to 1 foot down,

paultheparaglider
4th July 2007, 07:01
Paul,

I think the point that Mark is making is that although you can get a good glide ratio with a small fast wing, a big floaty slow wing with a glide ratio that is not quite as good will often have a lower sink rate. The upside to such a slow floaty wing is that it needs less power to get it into the air. The less power you need, the lighter the engine - and this is an important factor for SSDR. Mark, please correct me if this is not what you meant.

Peter, 12 to 1 would be a really great glide ratio for a trike. That said, manufacturers claims for glide performance are often, to put it politely, aspirational.

Paul C

mdphillips1956
4th July 2007, 07:16
Hello Paul,
Yes as always you put it much better than me... I was trying to say that for low powered flight to get in and out of small uncertified take off sites, a wing that converts its thrust readily into lift might fare better than one with a superb lift/drag ratio but that climbs out flat and fast.
Thanks for picking the bones out of my meanderings Paul!
Mark P.............

probshaw
4th July 2007, 19:01
Ha, now I understand,
I do think the Trya wing will need some power; the manufacturer has flown them with engines from 30hp but for optimum performance recommends 40 to 60 hp.

Take a look at the Simoni engine line up, the mini 3 gives 33 hp for 20kg which I think would push the ssdr trike along nicely.
If you want to make the most of the wing then the Victor 1 gives 44hp for 32 kg.

I donít really see the Trya being aimed at the low power market though as the original concept was to provide a reasonable performance flex wing at a reasonable price.
The SSDR trike will be developed at the top end of the performance stakes for the category, I hope that I will be able to provide a Flex wing which will fit the SSDR regs but still offer the performance of a section S trike. That means that it will be 110kg empty but donít forget it can still have a 300 kg take of weight. That means you have 290kg for you, fuel and luggage!

Even PK should be able to carry a spare shirt!

Seriously though with a bit of thought and thinking out side the box in regards to the rules a decent spec can be
Achieved.

The BB Trya (Section S) though will be aimed at the pilot who has passed the gft Want's something a bit more then the SSDR trike, but is not keen to spend mega bucks on a new machine. Developed as a capable touring machine but still with the ability to put a smile on your face on those days you just want to have a bit of fun.

Cheers Paul

mdphillips1956
4th July 2007, 19:31
Hello Paul,
It sounds nice, and clearly will be shoulder to shoulder with the SSDR Chaser; how will the two pan out price-wise?
As I think I might have said before, the price wants to stay clear of modern second hand two seaters (clearly you cannot be expected to vie with old Ravens and XLs) like the Quik etc as that second seat is a strong draw for the new pilot.
Other manufacturers have made good single seaters, but they never really worked in the market because they cost much the same as a two seater... actually, the Chaser was a good deal cheaper (just under £5,000) than contemporary two seaters, but perhaps that is why the company folded in its first year of production... and even though I sold nine for them!
It is clearly a tricky balance to strike Paul.
Mark P...........

probshaw
4th July 2007, 21:19
Hi Mark,
You sold 9 Chasers!! Where you the dealer?
The price of the full section S kit designated as the BB Trya /UK to give it its official name will be £5200 Inc vat. Remember this is a kit minus engine and instruments. To give you some idea of what that realistically means, the G_CEMP has cost me less then £8000 with a very full fit out. (Some stuff such as fuel flow gauges etc are there only because its the test machine and will be used in future for the new type engine tests) Thatís building with every thing brand new except the engine which is a 0 hours rebuild from Ecclestone. It could be done much cheaper if you wanted to get an old trike and use the engine gearbox prop and instruments from this.

The SSDR is 4200 Inc Vat. This comes built but with out engine or instruments fitted. I can have these supplied and fitted competitively if required.

The SSDR will not be the cheapest SSDR on the market but it will be the best overhaul performer and can be fitted (weight permitting) with all the extras thatís in the pipeline for the full section S Trya. i.e.:- electric hang point, full luggage set (quality gear and includes
Tent, sleeping, bag and luggage) etc.
you are right it is a tricky balance but where I am at an advantage I do not have to make a profit! Remember this is a low profit operation with the intention of making this trike available and then using any profits to fund the development of other products. Some products may be new, but thereís lots of other stuff available in a big wide world which just need developing in England.
All the best Paul

mdphillips1956
4th July 2007, 22:07
Hello Paul,
Yes quite a few of my students bought Chasers through me in late 1988 and into 1989; I think Ian Grayland said I sold more than any other school in the UK... and I was a one man show at that time too.
So the SSDR at £4,200 is for wing and trike but no engine... as you say, if someone finds a nice second hand motor that is not too bad... just to awkward though, as I am known to be: I would prefer to have a second hand machine with a brand new engine if it came to the same price and that was the money I had to spend.
Is the electric hangpoint really worth the cost and compromise of ground stability on an SSDR machine?
In a couple of years from now there will be plenty of second hand Quiks on the second hand market with 912s of just a few hundred hours, as by then there will be a new model with the stability of a GT450 and the speed probably in excess of the Quik.
There might be old Quiks for around £10,000 that will make excellent single seaters, and still carry two people and a picnik hamper.
Perhaps I am too pesimistic about the future of up-market single seaters Paul, but I have this feeling that singles will have less going for them if they can't put plenty of clear blue water between them and the two seaters in terms of price.
I am not an expert in the three axis trade at all, but it has seemed to me that one or two excellent aircraft, like perhaps the Sluka and the Phantom (same thing perhaps), had everything going for them except the absense of a second seat.
I am though just thinking out loud really Paul, and cannot pretend to have my finger on the pulse of the modern market; I applaud your venture and would do what I can to see it get a fighting chance.
Mark Phillips.....................

probshaw
4th July 2007, 22:28
Is the electric hangpoint really worth the cost and compromise of ground stability on an SSDR machine.

Probably showing my ignorance but how will the electric hang point affect ground stability?

paultheparaglider
4th July 2007, 23:03
Paul Robshaw wrote:
That means that it will be 110kg empty but donít forget it can still have a 300 kg take of weight. That means you have 290kg for you, fuel and luggage!
Paul, I think you would make a very good accountant. :devil:
Peter K, now you see what I mean about creative sales figures. :p

mdphillips1956
5th July 2007, 08:31
Hello Paul,
And I might be showing my ignorrance of the BB's engineering.
The Achilles heel of trikes is their lateral stability; they can tip over when a three axis machine would hardly have thought about the slope; of course some weight up top you cannot do without, but if weight is of no real benefit it will in some circumstances bring you closer to the point of no return... so my rethorical question Paul (and it made the perhaps spurious jump of assuming electric hangpoint meant heavy parts and motors etc) was will the benefits of an electric hangpoint really balance the downsides, or is it a risky gimmick?
I suppose again I am really just hankering after a long departed simple life, where a bungee hook tied to your seatbelt was hooked onto the aframe in a headwind... all the advantages, with none of the disadvantages of a mechanically moved hangpoint!
True, balasting up an aircraft may not in itself make it slower, as long as you have the power available to support it; but the extra power needs extra fuel which means extra weight, where a lighter trike could fly on a smaller cleaner wing.
Okay, heavier stuff rides the bumps better, but when all is said and done you still only have mark 1 feeble arms to fly it with and it can end up a bit like steering a barge!

As you can hear Paul, I am most interested about seeing BB trikes at the SSDR end of the market... let Pegair do the supership section S end and you can enjoy the creative freedom of SSDR.
Mark P.....................

mdphillips1956
5th July 2007, 08:39
Hi Paul,
Just seen my mail of the 2nd of July... not sure why I said the SSDR wing would need to be smaller... softer yes perhaps, but the average size of a (non Quik) two seater is probably okay for a low powered trike.
Mark P............

probshaw
5th July 2007, 18:08
Shit Typo error ! meant 190 which is still enough for PKs spare shirt!
may be not his wallet but cant have every thing can we.

Cheers PaulI

probshaw
5th July 2007, 18:22
The electric hang point will be an option if I can get it though. The pitch forces are so light on the Trya that its not a nessesity but it will be nice to have the full speed range of the trike avalible at the push of a button. The option will replace the 3 ground adjustable hang points and will be based on Kev Armstrongs hang point (I have already discussed the use of this with Kev.). It wont be that heavy that its likly to tip the trike over.

The hang point will be aimed mainly at the full Section S trike but because the wings the same as the SSDR trike then its still avalible.

probshaw
5th July 2007, 19:53
Ah well youll just have to use the american express then!! Cheers Paul

mdphillips1956
5th July 2007, 22:31
Hi Paul,
I didn't say the weight of an electric hangpoint would in itself "tip the trike over"; and if it needs an electric hangpoint then the extra weight up top has to be... but I said that if it is in fact not really needed at all, then the last thing any trike needs is uneccessary weight added seven or eight feet above the ground.
Just a few times in my flying life I have been in a situation where one rear wheel is coming up and only by a whisker we don't go over... on a couple of other times I was in that situation, and we did go over: tedious and expensive!
But the only issue is, is it a real advantage; if the answer is yes then go for it!
Mark P..............

probshaw
6th July 2007, 21:25
I wont really know how it will performe until I have fitted one and tried it, but what I am hopeing for is to be able to use the full speed range of the wing with out haveing to change the ground adjustable hang point.
I know the wing is so light handleing it wont need it, but its just there as an option for those that want it.
Some will and some wont, its a kit the choice is yours.

mdphillips1956
6th July 2007, 23:33
Hi Paul,
Either way experimentation is good, and is exactly what SSDR is all about... to be honest my homebuilt trike is a lot more outlandish and dubiously experimental.
Mark P...........

probshaw
6th July 2007, 23:38
Cant wait to see it mate. Any pics?

mdphillips1956
7th July 2007, 00:04
As many as you can stomach Paul,
Have I got your email address to send to... I can't find it here so if I can have it I will slip a couple through the ether.
Mark P............

probshaw
7th July 2007, 20:48
Hi Mark,
Heres my address
probshaw@soloflightltd.com

look forward to haveing a gander at the trike.

Cheers Paul.

8420
9th December 2007, 21:22
I've been reading almost all the topics related to BB Trya and Chaser...the reason being that I'm looking for a very good SS trike capable of competition.Looks as if the Chaser 508 combination is the all time winner....but I would love somebody to inform me if I am wrong and what other possibilities exist.I can't believe a trike with a design 15 or more years old is still the best for competition!!

probshaw
10th December 2007, 18:06
Why dont you wait until after Christmas then come fly the Trya Demonstrator? Make your own mind up.
I would require to see your log book and for you to go up with another pilot before we let you loose with my pride and joy, but as soon as your cleared to fly it take it up and give it a good test.

probshaw
10th December 2007, 18:08
Why dont you wait until after Christmas then come fly the Trya Demonstrator? Make your own mind up.
I would require to see your log book and for you to go up with another pilot before we let you loose with my pride and joy, but as soon as your cleared to fly it take it up and give it a good test.

8420
11th December 2007, 20:33
Thank you Paul!...sounds like a good deal to me!.....

probshaw
11th December 2007, 21:16
Give me a shout when you see the post saying its out of flight test and we will arrange some thing.