Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 38

Thread: Closure of forum to non members.

  1. #21

    Closure of forum to non members.

    Kirk Sutton wrote:

    The council discussions and decisions are confidential - always have been before you ask, its not a new thing to try and lock out members.

    The decision is one of council and has been put into effect so by deduction a proposal was put to council, discussed, taken to a vote and passed or we would not be having this discussion.

    Personally I am not adverse to council discussions in part being opened to membership and where a matter before council is not confidential I have no issue with my voting being clear to members but that will require change to the long standing process of council.

    So until council changes its policy I will not break the confidentially that has been agreed for council discussions.
    asking council members has been tried Geoff

  2. #22
    not real name 500 Club
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    698

    Closure of forum to non members.

    Geoff Weighell wrote:
    Quote Originally Posted by Dominic Connolly
    This is what happened:

    Someone was tasked with reviewing the BMAA forum within the context of falling membership numbers and membership benefits. The proposal to lockout non BMAA members came out of that process and was presented to the committee. That proposal went to a vote and it went through to the surprise of many due to absenteeism and abstentions. We are now bound by a decision supported by only THREE people who thought it was a good idea at the time, for whatever reason, maybe their own agenda, maybe because they thought they were doing the right thing.

    This is what should have happened:

    Someone with a bit more experience who actually regularly participates in the forum on a regular basis, understands who the contributors are, that they are not all BMAA members who add value, that the forum is a shop window for the association, and that in the modern world, people do not expect to pay for an internet resource is given the task to review the role of the BMAA forum. Based on a measured and considered assessment, including engaging with the membership and listening to opinion, a proposal on future structure should then be put to committee. Should part of that proposal be that write access is denied to non members, then that proposal should be held off until there is a full committee available, regardless of the quorum rules.

    This is what needs to happen:

    The BMAA membership needs to accept as much responsibility for this fracas as the committee itself. There is a lack of membership engagement, committee members are being elected by default, there is a shortage of candidates prepared to put themselves forward. Either reduce the number on council or do something about getting a proper election process restarted. Review the election process in its entirety. Democracy does not work with an electorate mired in apathy. Take an interest in your association and the future of your flying privilege.

    Unclog the channels of communication between the council, the CEO and the membership. This should be through the forum, through the website, through the magazine and through the eNewsletter. The world is moving on and the BMAA is standing still. Accept the logistical limitations of 10 councillors dotted around the country and do something about the silly rule whereby a council member can only vote if he is actually present. Drag yourself into the C21st, the way we live and work is changing and we all need to change with or suffer the consequences. I myself could not function today without video-conferencing, the internet and skype.

    By the Chairman's own admission in this month's magazine, he has dropped the ball in terms of PR and marketing. This is a difficult role that really needs to be filled by someone who is first a passionate microlighter and secondly has some experience in this area, not the other way round. Only when this role is filled and there is a change of attitude giving more back to our sport and volunteering rather than just taking and complaining can we move forward.
    Domonic, If you read the Articles of Association, 12, you will note that members of the Council do not have to be present to Participate in a meeting and that votes are cast by participating members. Therefore a Council member could be at the other end of the country, participate and vote. So that resolves that concern.
    Thanks for clarifying that Geoff. However, it was my understanding that another resolution has been passed whereby council business cannot be discussed outside of the meeting room. If that is correct, and maybe somebody can clarify, there is a contradiction in that it is unreasonable to expect someone to vote remotely, if he cannot be involved in the discussions before the ensuing vote.

  3. #23

    Closure of forum to non members.

    William Russell wrote: Sorry to keep on about this then Geoff if you can vote by telephone Internet etc. can you please then tell the forum members why this vote was carried with only three votes cast and one abstention and was this proposal discussed with all members of councillor only those at the meeting prior to the vote being taken
    Seven members were present, and all voted.
    Two were sick, so in no fit state to participate and vote, and one other was stuck with business committments. All had the agenda and the paper with the proposal.

    The meeting was well quorate, so well within voting rules.

    the nature of he human condition and volunteer status, means we rarely have a full council at any one meeting. if we had to have a full house to get any business done we wouldn't get anything done.

    We can all vote on issues outside of meetings and have a special egroup to do so, which remains for archiving purposes. but the nature of email / forum debate is that its generally very inefficient, and divisive. Arguments and best aired face to face in my experience.

    Paul

  4. #24

    Closure of forum to non members.

    Dominic

    of course council business can be discussed outside of the council room. it would be barking mad and of course completely unenforceable to have a rule that prevented it.

    We have a council discussion forum, and a voting egroup, various sub committee meetings at varying locations, and speak to one another on the phone. those that drive up long distance and stay the night before, often meet and have their own 'pre council meeting' that evening. and of course we attend meetings as council reps all over the place. And we often have urgent business that requires some of us meeting, or visiting Deddington individually or in small groups.

    the only rule that was passed recently was following one member Skyping out part of a meeting without our knowledge at the time. it was agreed that this should only be done if we are all informed and all agree to it.

    if thats what its about, it can only have come from a council member, and seems to me easy to work out who. Some times the old boy gets things a bit arse about face, so take what he tells you with a pinch of salt.

    Paul

  5. #25
    not real name 500 Club
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    698

    Closure of forum to non members.

    Thanks for clarifying that Paul, and like many others I am grateful that you are taking so much time out to explain these things. The bottom line however is that I am uncomfortable with a decision as controversial as this - and it is controversial, as has been proven by the events of the last few days - being carried with only 3 supporters. Quorum or not, when an elected council of ten represents the association, I do not expect to find an important decision being waved through with only 3 votes. Yes it did go to a casting vote and it is hardly surprising that the Chairman would vote the same way that he did earlier, otherwise they would be a lack of consistency. The fact remains though that the person who had the final say on a decision on which so many people here have a strong objection is someone who appears to contribute to this forum about once every four years. Not exactly finger on the pulse stuff. Many comments have been made on low membership turnouts at elections, the council now appear to be adopting the same characteristic.

    This vote should have been postponed until a future meeting when there was higher representation, what was the urgency anyway? The fact that it wasn't suggests that the uproar it has caused was completely unanticipated. And it is time to look at solving the logistical problems of members who are travelling long distances, including those who aren't well enough to get there but are well enough to put a yes/no in an email or squeak yes/no over the phone.

    The council cannot expect better turnout from its members in elections if it does not lead by example.

  6. #26
    not real name 500 Club
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Glen Innes NSW - previously The Banana Stip - aka Stoke International in Kent
    Posts
    847

    Closure of forum to non members.

    Ok - Ive had confidentiality within the council meeting clarified to me ... seems its not as simple as the plain english meaning when applied to the BMAA council nor as it applies in corporate boards so I apologise if my earlier posts seemed evasive or attempting to frustrate members understanding of the decision - they were the result of my understanding and application of maintining the confidentiality of closed board discussions and maintenance of board support for decisions duly passed even if personally you voted contrary to them.

    So the width of what I can say as a council member is to the facts and my personal opinions so here goes for me:

    In December a council member raised the issue of refocusing on membership benefits, wide discussion of what benefits of membership exist and how well we communicate them to members followed. This discussion was not started by me but absoultely is in line with my election statement - and as part of this discussion the forum was raised as a member benefit currently provided to everyone regardless of membership. A council member other than me raised limiting of access to the forum to BMAA members only so as to focus the provision of member benefits to members. He was asked to put together a proposal paper.

    Proposal paper was drafted by member and provided to council members ahead of the Feb meeting.

    At the Feb meeting we were 3 members down - 2 for illness and 1 for work commitment so a council of 7 - still very much quorate.

    The member drafting the proposal was one of the ill ones so when we got to the section of the agenda on the paper I started the discussion - I personally support it so had no issue talking about it.

    There followed a fairly lengthy and wide ranging discussion with pretty much every councillor having an opinion and they were all heard - it was clear that this was an issue that had very strong opinion on both sides and that the limits of what proposal were not universally understood at the start of the discsusion eg locked to posting vs locked out all together.

    After everyone had had their say and given the council member who wrote it was not there I asked if we shouldn't postpone a vote until next meeting but someone said lets vote on it and if it fails it fails - sorry honestly can't remember who said that - so I proposed the issue be put to the vote and this was seconded.

    It went to vote 3 for, 3 against and 1 abstaining. And yes, I was one of the three voting for the proposal. As there was a tied vote under Art 15 the chairman was asked to cast a deciding vote and it was then passed 4 to 3.

    They are the facts surrounding the decision as I recall them.

    I understand that many will not agree with the decision and others will but the summary above is factually why and how the decision was made.

  7. #27
    not real name 500 Club
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    698

    Closure of forum to non members.

    Why don't you look at getting a Polycom for the conference room, I've been using them for over 20 years. Council members can then call in remotely or even better skype in via their laptop with a headset while multi-tasking. I would have thought it would pay for itself within 1 year with the savings in allowable expenses.

    http://www.polycom.co.uk/products-se...ng-phones.html

  8. #28
    not real name 500 Club
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Glen Innes NSW - previously The Banana Stip - aka Stoke International in Kent
    Posts
    847

    Closure of forum to non members.

    Worth a look - I've been using them in the office for years as well and they can really be useful in same cases - unless you need to see the whites of their eyes :lol:

    As for Skype - brilliant, use it regularly at home but in a conference situation where there is a large environment and/or people sitting around a table (like at a board meeting) or multiple dail-ins skype fairly quickly runs into its limitation ... and full AV room setups that I have paid for and run in businesses for years are not within the finances of the BMAA in terms of payback for the outlay and operational costs ... a polycom video unit is thousands of pounds and you need one at each node of the call ...

    Apart from the technical/financial issuse in the case of 3 members unable to attend the Feb meeting 2 were ill and with the best will in the world nobody should expect people to put attendance at council over their health. For the third busy with work ... yep, I can multitask on con-calls because I am office based and live on a PC anyway but not all work environments are amenable to dual tasking ... and again work prioritised over council if not continual etc is not unexpected for the BMAA.

    All of the council knew and accepted that when we put ourselves forward we were giving up days in the week if we were elected ... and for employed ones like me its annual leave given to the association, for self employed its lost work that either is lost altogether or caught up later.

    This is not said to illicit sympathy but stating a fact - we give up our time at cost to us and our family and it is reasonable to understand that at times some will be ill and at others their 'life' may require that the council comes second to either their business or family.

    Dominic Connolly wrote:
    Why don't you look at getting a Polycom for the conference room, I've been using them for over 20 years. Council members can then call in remotely or even better skype in via their laptop with a headset while multi-tasking. I would have thought it would pay for itself within 1 year with the savings in allowable expenses.

    www.polycom.co.uk/products-services/voice/conferencing-solutions/conferencing-phones.html

  9. #29
    Diamond geezer 500 Club
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Norfolk
    Posts
    1,201

    Closure of forum to non members.

    Kirk

    Thank you for the clarity you have given as to how this decision was reached and your frankness about your own views and how you voted.

    I am very pleased also that Council are taking seriously the need to explore the benefits of membership and how these are communicated. In my view these are possibly the two most important issues for Council at present.

    Nevertheless, you guys have stumbled at the first hurdle. It is a misunderstanding of the role of the internet to consider the ability to post on the BMAA forum to be a member benefit. As lots of posters have said, in many different ways, the reverse is true - posting on the BMAA forum is a contribution made by the poster to the BMAA, its membership and the wider microlighting community. This move has lowered the value of the forum to the BMAA, its membership and the wider microlighting community. It will damage the prospects for attracting new members, not enhance them.

  10. #30
    Diamond geezer 500 Club
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Kent, UK
    Posts
    1,889

    Closure of forum to non members.

    We have heard a lot about one C word - Confidentiality.

    We are still not focusing hard enough on the other C word - Consultation.

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •