Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

GRANDFATHER RIGHTS

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    GRANDFATHER RIGHTS

    Bill,
    Peter is quoting a poor translation of an out-of-date summary of the rules. Nothing unusual there.

    The restriction on carrying cameras and flying within 4kms from the border were dropped years ago. It is all here http://www.ulm.it/info/leggi/leggi.htm

    I agree that you cannot legally fly an Italian microlight on British PPL(A), because an ICAO licence does not apply to sub-ICAO aircraft. If permission is granted to fly microlights on an ICAO licence, that only applies in the airspace of the country granting that permission.

    Donald

    Comment


    • #17
      GRANDFATHER RIGHTS

      Hi Donald,
      Thanks for the clarification and I'm sure what you say is 100% correct. It's just a shame that Peter won't take the advice you have offered so freely.

      Kind Regards.......Bill.

      Comment


      • #18
        GRANDFATHER RIGHTS

        Donald Walker wrote:
        Bill,
        Peter is quoting a poor translation of an out-of-date summary of the rules. Nothing unusual there.

        The restriction on carrying cameras and flying within 4kms from the border were dropped years ago. It is all here http://www.ulm.it/info/leggi/leggi.htm

        I agree that you cannot legally fly an Italian microlight on British PPL(A), because an ICAO licence does not apply to sub-ICAO aircraft. If permission is granted to fly microlights on an ICAO licence, that only applies in the airspace of the country granting that permission.

        Donald
        Peter respectfully replies.....The only part that is different is : Limits to flight operations. You can fly all over the State (the limit to fly a 4 km from the border, was eliminated from the Law of 24 April 1998, 128 Provisions for the fulfillment of obligations arising from Italy's membership of the European Communities "- 1995/97- law art.22 paragraph 20 - published in the Official Journal n.88 / L, 7 May 1998). Now I am big enough to say I am wrong when I am actually wrong and in this instance I was told only a few hours before you posted this, that the 4km restriction was lifted.... Gianmarco advised me of this (so I was aware of it earlier) With regard to permission being granted for me to fly the Italian registered Ultralight I had been over this in August 2007 when I flew the Italian C42 across from Brescia to Northern Ireland, but with EASA changes I did want reconfirmation when it came to flying the Skyranger across. The ICAO licences are deemed by AecI & ENAC/ENAV to be superior in status to the Italian ULM licence, so the acceptance of such wasn't looked upon as being inferior in the case of an Englishman flying a ULM on such a licence. I am sometimes perplexed by the way some of the newbies try to forcefeed their ill informed opinions on matters that they don't even comprehend. I am the first to admit that I probably know more about the GA side of aviation than I do about microlighting and I concede to that I do tend to apply GA logic to 99.9% of my flying and that is a foible I have, but from my point of view I consider that why should I compromise the standards I maintain to fit into the simplistic regime of microlighting ? I actually have a lot of respect for the majority of microlighters, but equally I do have contempt for a small minority, as in all pastimes it gets infiltrated by good & bad people and the good people are excellent and the bad people are just obnoxious !!! open to being challenged by anybody who I class as inferior to me, so if I retaliate towards your opinion I am stating that I see your opinion as incorrect or inferior. I believe I live in a country that still promotes free speech, so I will freely give my opinion (worthless to most, but priceless to me) [/b]

        Comment


        • #19
          GRANDFATHER RIGHTS

          Bill,

          I have acknowledged that THE MAJORITY of what Donald said is correct, but as a person who really doesn't take undue chances I can assure you that I had dotted the I's and crossed the T's before setting off from Italy, ensuring that it was going to be a 100% legal flight.

          I think you may have missed the point that I have numerous contacts within Italian Aviation and it is very easy for me to check anything (if I need to)

          I tend to fly distance rather than locally and have experienced the regulations of most countries in some shape or fashion, so I would hope my so far unblemished record of 28yrs with foreign aviation authorities isn't just a matter of 'muddling through'

          I have been flying now 33 yrs and had the minor incident of damaging the SKR in my 32nd year, so I guess somebody is either looking after me or I am a pretty switched on guy when it comes to flying :blush:

          Remember we are all in this sport for enjoyment, so lets enjoy it eh :idea:

          Bill Parker BMAA 6598 wrote:
          Hi Donald,
          Thanks for the clarification and I'm sure what you say is 100% correct. It's just a shame that Peter won't take the advice you have offered so freely.

          Kind Regards.......Bill.

          Comment


          • #20
            GRANDFATHER RIGHTS

            Peter Kelsey (Ferryair) Earthrounders 2910 wrote:

            The ICAO licences are deemed by AecI & ENAC/ENAV to be superior in status to the Italian ULM licence,
            [/quote]Well, as long as you don't have to fly through France to get to the UK, you'll be alright :-)

            http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affich...1045&dateTexte=

            Donald

            Comment


            • #21
              GRANDFATHER RIGHTS

              [/u][/b]

              ORDER
              Order of 4 May 2000 for programs and plan reviews of patent and license driver motorized ultralight aircraft

              NOR: EQUA0000620A
              The Minister for Infrastructure, Transport and Housing,

              Considering the Convention on International Civil Aviation of 7 December 1944, all the protocols have changed, including the Protocol of 24 September 1968 on the authentic trilingual text of the Convention on International Civil Aviation;

              Given the code of civil aviation;

              Considering the Decree of 31 July 1981 amended in relation to patents, licenses and qualifications of non-professional sailors of Civil Aviation (flight crew of aircraft);

              Considering the Decree of 12 January 1984 on the program of instruction and examination system of patent and license driver motorized ultralight aircraft (ULM);

              Considering the Decree of 29 March 1999 on the licensing and qualifications of crew member of aircraft (FCL 1)

              Stops:

              Art. 1. - The theoretical knowledge to obtain the certificate of fitness is common theoretical defined in Annex I to this Order.

              The program specific knowledge of the test soil is defined by Annex II of this Order.

              The program knowledge to the ability to radio in French is defined by Annex III of this Order.

              Art. 2. - Review common theoretical. - The examination for obtaining the Certificate of Fitness theoretical common consists of a written test in the form of a multiple choice questionnaire.

              Received to be declared, the candidate must respond correctly to at least 75% of the questions. He then receives a certificate of proficiency theoretical common.

              Are deemed to hold the certificate of fitness common theoretical candidates satisfying one of the conditions listed in 1, 2 or 3 below:

              1. Having obtained a satisfactory result in the theoretical examination of a licensed airplane pilot, helicopter, glider or powered ultralight aircraft (ULM);

              2. Either:

              - A pilot of aircraft issued in accordance with the Decree of 31 July 1981 mentioned above, or

              - A certificate allowing equivalence to the pilot private plane or helicopter under paragraphs 4.2.1.2 and 4.3.1.2 of the Annex to the Order of 31 July 1981 amended above, or

              - A pilot's license issued pursuant to the Order of 29 March 1999 referred to above;

              3. Being a licensed foreign aircraft pilot, same date, issued in accordance with the standards of the Convention on International Civil Aviation. [color=red>[U]THE]

              Art. 3. - Evaluation theoretical instructor. - To obtain a satisfactory result in the theoretical evaluation instructor pilot ULM, applicants must correctly answer at least 90% of the questions at the theoretical common.

              Art. 4. - Organization of the theoretical common. - Office of the reviews of the service of aviation training and technical control of the Directorate General of Civil Aviation shall ensure the implementation of examination questions, the guardianship of tests and standardization of procedures.

              The heads of departments are organizing events in their respective ridings.

              In this title:

              - They decide the opening and closing of test centers and appoint the heads of examination centers;

              - They advertise, by any means deemed appropriate, the schedule of examinations indicating the date of the tests and the registration period;

              - Through the heads of examination centers, they manage the registration of candidates and ensure the availability of premises and equipment necessary review;

              - They make available to candidates of exam provided by the office of examinations;

              - Ensuring the correction of copies, notify and publish the results and make the statistics.

              Art. 5. - Penalties. - Penalties may be imposed by decision of the authorities provided for in Article 4 above against candidates who have committed fraud during the examination. These sanctions are:

              - Exclusion of the review session in progress;

              - Prohibition to attend one or more subsequent review sessions.

              Art. 6. - Test the soil specific. - The soil test is specific to each class of ULM. It consists of a check on the candidate's knowledge by an instructor pilot of the microlight grade. The program set out in Annex II of this Order must be adapted and developed by the instructor after class postulated.

              Art. 7. - Ability to radio in French. - To obtain the ability to radio in English, applicants must satisfy a check on the program with an instructor pilot ULM. This monitoring should include a practical flight.

              The candidate provides radio communications on all or part of flight.

              The pronunciation of each term must be clear and distinct.

              Art. 8. - The test on the ground in line with the Decree of 12 January 1984 referred to above is no longer held as of 15 July 2000.

              Art. 9. - The Director General of Civil Aviation is responsible for the implementation of this Order, which will be applicable one month after its date of publication in the Official Gazette of the French Republic.

              .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ........................

              openly bow to your knowledge and do actually read through the blurb and inwardly digest the relevant detail.... This also is fact when I discuss Italian REGULATIONS with Gianmarco, his wealth of knowledge on all legal requirements within italian aviation is mind boggling, so with the Italian laws I bow to his superior knowledge in the same way I would bow to your superior knowledge of french regulatory matters.[/b]









              I guess I should not continue to add flames to this fire as it can only really be my rear that gets flamed.

              Comment


              • #22
                GRANDFATHER RIGHTS

                Peter,

                The only reason you attract flames is because you keep spreading misinformation on here.

                Internet translations are not accurate enough for regulations. You have missed the whole point of Article 2, which in item 3 says a national or foreign ICAO compliant PPL exempts the holder from doing the (written) theory exam. In other words the holder is deemed to have passed that aspect of the course, but still has to complete the rest of the ULM course. This is proof positive that a PPL in itself does not entitle the holder to fly a microlight in France. All you can do with your licence is fly a UK registered microlight in the UK, or in France under the tems of the Instruction of 14 November 2000.

                Donald

                Comment


                • #23
                  GRANDFATHER RIGHTS

                  Peter asks...... OK, Nitty Gritty Time !!! So a UK Pilot holding an ICAO Licence is required to complete the ULM Flying aspect of the course, but is exempt from the writtens ? ( is that what you mean ?) Does this also apply for a UK Pilot who holds a Microlight licence if he/she wants to fly a foreign registered in France ?

                  I doubt whether the DGAC or whoever will ever challenge somebody flying an Italian registered ultralight in French Airspace, but I am glad that it wasn't put to the test after reading your well informed analogy. To clarify the relevant details I was flying an ITALIAN REGISTERED ULTRALIGHT ON A ICAO LICENCE THROUGH ITALY / FRANCE / UK / EIRE on BOTH EVENTS.

                  My argument would be that ICAO recognised licences are RECOGNISED by 99.9% of the World's Aviation Authorities and that it supersedes any regulation made at sub-ICAO levels, so unless I am wrong I seem to be holding an ACE CARD !!

                  As always I am open to persuasion on this subject, but if it means getting a ULM validation, then I guess I will need one before Spamfield as I will be flying yet another foreign registered ULM in. :nono: via France.

                  Donald Walker wrote:
                  Peter,

                  The only reason you attract flames is because you keep spreading misinformation on here.

                  Internet translations are not accurate enough for regulations. You have missed the whole point of Article 2, which in item 3 says a national or foreign ICAO compliant PPL exempts the holder from doing the (written) theory exam. In other words the holder is deemed to have passed that aspect of the course, but still has to complete the rest of the ULM course. This is proof positive that a PPL in itself does not entitle the holder to fly a microlight in France. All you can do with your licence is fly a UK registered microlight in the UK, or in France under the tems of the Instruction of 14 November 2000.

                  Donald

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    GRANDFATHER RIGHTS

                    [quote=Peter Kelsey (Ferryair) Earthrounders 2910]

                    Peter asks...... OK, Nitty Gritty Time !!! So a UK Pilot holding an ICAO Licence is required to complete the ULM Flying aspect of the course, but is exempt from the writtens ? ( is that what you mean ?) Does this also apply for a UK Pilot who holds a Microlight licence if he/she wants to fly a foreign registered in France ?

                    Yes and yes. You cannot even fly an French microlight in France on a UK microlight licence, as you cannot fly a UK registered microlight in the UK on a French ULM licence.

                    This must be boring people to tears.

                    Donald

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      GRANDFATHER RIGHTS

                      Donald,

                      I thought I would ask a French Flight Instructor who also teaches on microlights and here is the full transcript :

                      [19:27:47] PETER says: bonjour Cedric.
                      [19:29:43] CÚdric says: Hi Peter, what's up ?
                      [19:30:27] PETER says: I need some advice about french aviation regulations
                      [19:30:41] CÚdric says: go !
                      [19:31:57] PETER says: Can an ICAO licenced pilot legally fly a Ultralight in France or do they need to do the ULM course ?
                      [19:34:53] CÚdric says: a french pilot with a basic licence or PPL can ask by equivalence and have the theoric part this way, then, you need 5 hours minimum with a microlight instructor to have the licence
                      [19:35:07] PETER says: ok thanks
                      [19:37:00] PETER says: but lets now assume the ULM is Italian registered being flown by a British Pilot in French Airspace on an ICAO licence ?
                      [19:37:31] PETER says: how legal would that be or would it be non legal
                      [19:38:07] CÚdric says: You're lucky because as you know I'm flight-instructor and I'm micro-light instructor too !
                      [19:38:36] PETER says: that is why I am asking you
                      [19:38:41] CÚdric says: but I don't know about a foreign licence
                      [19:41:14] PETER says: Is it non legal for an Italian registered ULM to fly through France with an ICAO licenced pilot as P.I.C.? My ICAO PPL states any fixed wing aircraft under 5700kg !!!
                      [19:41:53] CÚdric says: sorry, I'm sure you can't
                      [19:42:28] CÚdric says: your ICAO licence isn't right for micro-lights
                      [19:43:29] CÚdric says: you need a micro-light licence from UK, france or Italia doen't matter
                      [19:44:48] PETER says: OK thanks for that, I was unsure and needed to know the answer.
                      [19:45:20] CÚdric says: what's your weight Peter ?
                      [19:45:29] PETER says: 110kg
                      [19:45:48] CÚdric says: TOW=450 Kg max !
                      [19:46:21] CÚdric says: and 472,5 with airframe parachute
                      [19:48:18] PETER says: yes SKR 268kg and 110kg = 368kg... in the SKR I had only 50 litres of fuel (36kg) = 414kg WELL WITHIN LIMITS.
                      [19:49:27] PETER says: The C42 I came through your strip with had BRS but the SKR didn't.



                      So he did confirm that a UK microlight pilot should be legal on a French registered or Italian registered microlight, but the ICAO licence is worthless on any foreign registered microlight outside UK airspace.

                      I concede I LOST

                      [quote]Donald Walker wrote:

                      Originally posted by Peter Kelsey (Ferryair) Earthrounders 2910

                      Peter asks...... OK, Nitty Gritty Time !!! So a UK Pilot holding an ICAO Licence is required to complete the ULM Flying aspect of the course, but is exempt from the writtens ? ( is that what you mean ?) Does this also apply for a UK Pilot who holds a Microlight licence if he/she wants to fly a foreign registered in France ?

                      Yes and yes. You cannot even fly an French microlight in France on a UK microlight licence, as you cannot fly a UK registered microlight in the UK on a French ULM licence.

                      This must be boring people to tears.

                      Donald

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        GRANDFATHER RIGHTS

                        Knucklehead Kelsey (Ferryair) Earthrounders 2910 wrote:

                        Ho Hum, you win some, you lose some !
                        [/quote]Hey Pete mate,
                        Even a newbie with his ill informed opinons on matters he could'nt possibly comprehend, had an inclination that the bullshit you were trying to forcefeed us was totally wrong.

                        It's time for you to get a new slant on who's the inferior one.

                        Well done Donald you've achieved the impossible... (getting superman to admit he was wrong.)

                        Regards.....Bill.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          GRANDFATHER RIGHTS

                          Peter,

                          He may have confirmed you can fly a British micro on a French ULM licence or vice-versa, but I have both a Brevet et Licence de Pilote d'ULM and a PPL(M)A because I know you can't.

                          BTW NPPLs carry the following clause: "The licence holder is entitled to exercise licence privileges on aircraft registered in the United Kingdom".

                          I've had enough. Chau.

                          Donald

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            GRANDFATHER RIGHTS

                            Bill,
                            Unlike others, I will admit when I am wrong, but then I am 'Superman' or maybe I should get my ears syringed because they might be saying " Who is that Prize C##t ?"
                            Bill Parker BMAA 6598 wrote:

                            Originally posted by Loudmouth Kelsey (Ferryair) Earthrounders 2910

                            Ho Hum, you win some, you lose some !
                            Hey Pete mate,
                            Even a newbie with his ill informed opinons on matters he could'nt possibly comprehend, had an inclination that the bullshit you were trying to forcefeed us was totally wrong.

                            It's time for you to get a new slant on who's the inferior one.

                            Well done Donald you've achieved the impossible... (getting superman to admit he was wrong.)

                            Regards.....Bill.
                            [/quote]

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              GRANDFATHER RIGHTS

                              Appology accepted Pete


                              Best Regards...Bill.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                GRANDFATHER RIGHTS

                                My French Instructor friend is saying that a UK Microlight Licence is accepted on a ULM in France, but again....don't shoot the messenger !!! I am going to get him to issue my Brevet et Licence de Pilote d'ULM to keep me 100% legal, he said he will post me it :smilewinkgrin: He said " I don't usually issue them by post, but as you are friends with other pilots in uk I have given before, I will do it for you"

                                Donald Walker wrote:
                                Peter,

                                He may have confirmed you can fly a British micro on a French ULM licence or vice-versa, but I have both a Brevet et Licence de Pilote d'ULM and a PPL(M)A because I know you can't.

                                BTW NPPLs carry the following clause: "The licence holder is entitled to exercise licence privileges on aircraft registered in the United Kingdom".

                                I've had enough. Chau.

                                Donald

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X