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  • GRANDFATHER RIGHTS

    recently been discussing 'Grandfather rights' relating to CAA/JAR Licence entitlements with some fellow flyers and there seems to be some Grey

    I have maintained currency on these 'differences training' types and have remained suitably trained in these types. Now comes the part where we all seemed to disagree, I have been told that having previously flown a Chevvron and a Noble Snowbird prior to JAR coming into force I would also be entitled to 'Grandfather rights' for 3 axis microlights which whilst in my mind doesn't seem likely I guess that there are some points of argument here under the 'Grandfather rights' allowed previously.

    As I have all the 'Grandfather rights' to fly the Zenair 601TD (GA Version) or [/b]





    [color=blue>

    [color=blue> jumping into a Skyranger or any other 3 axis microlight and flying it, but jumping into a flexwing without the training scares me !! I also don't know what 'CHIFTWAP' means, I can on occasions remember my 'HASELL' or 'BUMPFF' checks (they even slip my mind sometimes)[/color] [/b]


  • #2
    GRANDFATHER RIGHTS

    My pals have asked the question on GA forums and got varying answers, but I wanted the opinion on here and wasn't prepared to have them join here to pose the question themselves.
    I am cautious of who I tell about this forum,as it needs to stay 'a cut above the rest'

    I have only flown in 2 flexwings ever and they were a Raven from Plaistows ( G-MNYG) and a Quantum 582 (G-MYPI)

    Both times I had differing experiences, the Raven I felt really un-nerved in and clung on for grim death and was a back seat passenger, but in the Quantum I was given the front seat and told I would fly it

    :freaked:

    The Quantum in the air was fairly easy to fly, but I did the push the bar left and expect to turn left and got caught out when it went right and also did the pull back on the bar at the flare which luckily the 'real' pilot had pre-empted me doing and was already covering my movements, I also did the left boot for rudder malarky when I saw some drift close to the ground, but again that was corrected very quickly by the 'real' pilot. I gather now that the 'real' pilot is now instructing on flex's

    :eyes:

    Comment


    • #3
      GRANDFATHER RIGHTS

      Differences training

      • *


      R e v a l i d a t i o n


      In the twelve months prior to the expiry of the existing certificate you must have flown 12 hours in piston singles,touring motor gliders or microlights, of which 6 hours must be as pilot in command, made twelve take offs and landings and have completed a flight of at least one hour with an instructor which must be countersigned in your log book. Any other proficiency check or skill test for a class or type rating can replace this flight. (even though they may not have been undertaken on a single engined aircraft). If a pilot cannot meet these requirements, a proficiency check must be undertaken with an examiner in the 3 months prior to expiry. If your certificate of revalidation has lapsed, a skills test with an examiner is required.

      Don't get caught out by this

      :nono:

      Comment


      • #4
        GRANDFATHER RIGHTS

        I was recently taken to task over the legitimacy of a CAA PPL (A) Holder being able to fly a Microlight on their licence, now my understanding and also that of Jeremy Harris was that it was 'Within the privileges' of the licence holder.

        Read as : Any fixed wing aircraft weighing less than 5700kg

        Now this seemingly is only correct if the CAA PPL (A) satisfies the following criteria :
        [color=#ff0000>
        If you have flown microlights on your CAA issued "Group A" licence since January 1999 and have remained current by obtaining a certificate of experience every 13 months then you can have a microlight rating added to your licence without any additional testing or training under "grandfather" rights . If you have never flown microlights on your Group A licence but wish to start, then you will need to undertake type conversion training leading to a GFT, which you must pass together with the Microlight Ground Oral exam, before applying for the addition of a microlight rating to your Group A licence. If you have a JAR FCL PPL, then you will need to undertake type conversion training leading to a GFT, which you must pass together with the Microlight Ground Oral exam, before applying for the addition of a microlight rating to your JAR FCL PPL. All applications for the addition of a microlight rating should be made to the BMAA on NPPL Form 102M, available for download on this website, accompanied by a cheque for required fee made payable to the CAA or alternatively the payment details must be completed on the NPPL Form 102 if payment by credit/debit card is preferred.

        The stumbling block is the definition of 'JANUARY 1999' This as I was led to believe means that if you commenced flying microlights on the 1st Feb 1999 you had to undertake the type conversion training and the GFT, along with the Microlight Ground Oral exam.

        Whilst I am uncertain about whether I am on the muddy side of the fence or not, I would ask the Instructor fraternity whether they have a 'cast iron' answer to this query ? For clarity: All CAA PPL(A) privileges have been maintained throughout by 24 month revalidation by experience, but not by 13 month revalidation for flying microlights and again this seems to be a legal issue that was otherwise unknown to most.

        Another quirk of CAA logic: If said pilot flys a VLA version of a Microlight variant the hours count towards his/her revalidation, but if he/she flys the microlight version, those hours are useless to him/her !!!

        Example : C42 VLA with 95kg PILOT and 43kg of fuel (Full Tanks) = 406kg (100% legal for revalidation hours) yet, same Pilot with 15kg of fuel (21litres) plus 72kg = 450kg on a BMAA C42 Microlight (totally illegal for revalidation hours)

        where is the logic eh ?

        Answers on a postcard

        Comment


        • #5
          GRANDFATHER RIGHTS

          I only re-validate my PPL(A) and (M) by the 24 month route and was advised by the BMAA office when that change took place that I did not have to also get my 13 month microlight 'stamp' as well. This point was important to me as I check fly microlights and didn't want any legality challenge over that.
          Dave

          Comment


          • #6
            GRANDFATHER RIGHTS

            Peter.
            If it is of any help in clarifying things, I asked Mr Williams of the CAA Personnel Licencing dept a similar question re my CAA PPL(A) and Microlights .
            His response (4th August 2008) seems to clarify the "stumbling block" mentioned of "since Jan 99", by replacing it with "prior to February 2008".
            It may also help clarify the medical requirements/paperork requirements to do so. (As you will have a class 2 medical and intend to continue with your SEP rating it appears you need to do... nothing?)

            Quote....
            If you have been exercising the privileges of a SEP class rating, included in a lifetime valid UK PPL(A), on Microlights prior to 01 February 2008, you may continue to do so. However, you will be required to revalidate your SEP class rating at some point, and in order to do so you would have to have a valid Class 2 medical.

            If at this point you do not do so, and you wish to continue flying on the basis of a medical declaration, you will need to have the Microlight aicraft class rating added to your PPL(A). Provided you meet the requirements for revalidation of a Microlight aircraft class rating (i.e. more than 5 hours experience in the previous 13 months etc.) you can ask an Examiner to revalidate your SEP class rating as a Microlight aircraft class rating. The Examiner makes the relevant entry in the Certificate of Revalidation page in your licence, entering the Date of Check on the date of revalidation and the Valid To date 24 months later. The Examiner is not authorised to make any entry in the aircraft ratings page of your licence, so you will need to apply to PLD for this service using the standard BMMA, NPLG or BGA application form.

            The Examiner may also revalidate your SEP class rating as SSEA provided you also meet the revalidation requirements for the SEP class rating. Likewise the Examiner may make an entry into the Certificate of Revalidation page in your licence, as per the Microlight class rating above. Again, you will have to apply to PLD for the inclusion of the SSEA class rating in your licence.

            In essence there are two options open to you:

            1. Continue to exercise privileges of your SEP class rating on Microlights and/or SEP, but for this you will be requierd to maintain your SEP class rating and Class 2 medical; or
            2. Revalidate your SEP class rating as SSEA and/or Microlight provided you meet the revalidation requirements for each, and then apply to PLD to have SSEA and/or Microlight class ratings included in your licence. In which case you will no longer require a Class 2 medical and can revalidate according to the new "12 hours in 24 months" requirements.

            Comment


            • #7
              GRANDFATHER RIGHTS

              Wally H / Dave S,

              I have read both views/comments and I still think the verdict is out !

              I meet the Medical requirements relevant to my licences issued, but still not entirely convinced that the response you received is perceived that way throughout the CAA licencing division, but I will certainly get clarification of that by my friendly FCL personnel.

              I am now armed with 2 opinions that are exactly how I took it to be, but recently was told that if you commenced microlight flying after 1st Feb 1999 then you are falling foul of not having a microlight endorsement.

              06.07.1999 is the 1st 'official' flight in a microlight that I made and it seems that as 6th July 1999 is after the 31st January 1999 I am supposed to have a microlight validation against my licence, but again I believe (or hope) you are both correct.

              I am expecting the answer within the next few days and will update this when I fully know the CAA view as of this moment.

              The 1st Feb 2008 is an interesting date as it is 9 years to the day after the 'stumbling block' date set out !!! (must have been quite a stumble)

              Anyway I think that as Mr Williams has made that quote, I will believe that and utilise that to my best convenience, I was panicking that I had missed a few 13 month revalidation stamps, but now I will relax.

              Comment


              • #8
                GRANDFATHER RIGHTS

                Have a look at the document on this link.

                http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/AN%20Amendment%20Order%20Circular%20v%201%2000%200 0.pdf

                Comment


                • #9
                  GRANDFATHER RIGHTS

                  Alan,

                  Thank you for pointing me in the direction of the PDF that has answered 99.9% of my concerns.

                  Perhaps someone could clarify this part as even after reading the pdf I am confused :idea:

                  Section 2.4 highlights that under Exemption ORS 4 no 711 this applies only within UK AIRSPACE ? Now as the holder of a ICAO recognised licence with ICAO recognised Medical Certificate attached am I allowed to fly a foreign registered microlight ? or should I be required to apply to the country of origin for a validation to my licence ?

                  In reading Section 7.3 it says that the exemption doesn't exempt pilots from the requirement to hold a JAA Medical Certificate when exercising the normal privileges of the SEP rating, well this is where the question needs to be asked whether the operation of a foreign registered microlight falls into the normal privileges of the SEP rating ? I am led to believe it doesn't fall within the ICAO category and therefore falls under different rules and is a grey area that needs defined as black or white.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    GRANDFATHER RIGHTS

                    Peter Kelsey (Ferryair) Earthrounders 2910 wrote:
                    Now as the holder of a ICAO recognised licence with ICAO recognised Medical Certificate attached am I allowed to fly a foreign registered microlight ? or should I be required to apply to the country of origin for a validation to my licence ?

                    Well this is where the question needs to be asked whether the operation of a foreign registered microlight falls into the normal privileges of the SEP rating ?
                    Hi Pete,

                    I can recall some of your mates(especially Rick) suggesting you should be carefull when flying these foreign microlights into our homeland, as you might be breaking some of our laws. You chose to ignore this advice, so don't be surprised if the insurance company stick up two fingers at your claim for the Italian Skyranger you crashed.

                    Regards......Bill

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      GRANDFATHER RIGHTS

                      Peter Kelsey (Ferryair) Earthrounders 2910 wrote:

                      I am led to believe it doesn't fall within the ICAO category and therefore falls under different rules and is a grey area that needs defined as black or white.
                      My understanding is that sub-ICAO licences are restricted to national sub-ICAO aircraft and ICAO licences are restricted to national sub-ICAO aircraft, where specifically authorised, and ICAO aircraft of any registration.

                      Donald

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        GRANDFATHER RIGHTS

                        Bill Parker BMAA 6598 said...

                        Hi Pete,

                        I can recall some of your mates(especially Rick) suggesting you should be carefull when flying these foreign microlights into our homeland, as you might be breaking some of our laws. You chose to ignore this advice, so don't be surprised if the insurance company stick up two fingers at your claim for the Italian Skyranger you crashed.

                        Regards......Bill

                        Peter answers..... flying these foreign registered microlights into my homeland, but I must stress that contrary to what you might think, I actually regard any advice afforded me by Rick Goddin as worthy of investigation and as a responsible pilot did look into the legalities of flying these foreign registered microlights and at the time I was given the all clear 99.9%. My flying foreign microlights into the UK from abroad didn't actually break any regulations, but the incident where the Skyranger got damaged did highlight that the aircraft was actually in the UK and as would be expected it did make certain departments ask questions. I would say that the findings during the following months were fruitful and whilst I might have been panicking about certain things, by the incredible assistance that I received from the Italian Aviation Authorities I was actually found to be so 'squeaky clean' that it shocked me. Now I will get onto the Insurance companies assistance, the Skyranger was insured for 3rd party cover by an Italian Aviation Insurance company and whilst it was covered 3rd party I am sure you understand that I cannot claim for damages caused by accident for repairs of the Skyranger but could claim for any 3rd party damage. Regards, Peter. [/b]

                        If you think the UK have some bizarre restrictions, check out this set of guidelines for Italian Ultralighters, I will put in 'reality pointers to this list' :

                        Ultralight regulations in Italy

                        Synthesis of the actual regulations

                        Reading the various laws it isn't easy to understand exactly what or who can fly. This is the reason why someone wrote the following summary, leaving out the more elementary rules (e.g. ... it is forbidden to drop objects or liquids during flight!) and many other specific indications.
                        • Obligations of crash helmet. During flight on all microlights it is compulsory to wear a protective helmet, rigid kind suitable for this kind of activity. (THIS DOESN'T ACTUALLY HAPPEN AS FAR AS I HAVE SEEN, I WONDER IF THIS WOULD INVALIDATE INSURANCE ?)
                        • Characteristics of aircrafts. Maximum weight at take-off excluding seat belts, parachute, instruments:
                          single-seater with engine :
                          Kg. 300 ( 330 for amphibians and water planes), stalling speed must not exceed 65 Km/p.h.

                          two-seater with engine :
                          Kg. 450 ( 500for amphibians and water planes), stalling speed must not exceed 65 Km/p.h.
                        • Two-seater. Use of two-seater vehicles is allowed for: instructors, pilots with a valid private license, pilots with at least 30 hours of flying experience as controller who have passed the necessary exam.
                        • Use of aircraft for take off and landing. Is it possible to take off and land on any suitable area as long as you have the permission of the owner or responsible of such area. For any operation near civil airports a special authorization is necessary. ( THIS IS THE MOST USEFUL THING THE AecI HAVE GIVEN TO THE ULTRALIGHTING FRATERNITY OF ITALY, EVERYWHERE IS A POTENTIAL RUNWAY, I DEPARTED THE MAGGIORE AREA FROM A GOLF COURSE !!)
                        • Flight operation limits. It is possible to fly all over national territory until 4 Km from the border with another state. It is prohibited to take sensors or any kind of cameras and telecameras aboard. ( THIS DOES ACTUALLY READ AS THAT NO ULTRALIGHTER CAN FLY OUTSIDE OF THE ITALIAN AIRSPACE IN THEIR ULM !!!!, HOWEVER AGAIN THIS REGULATION IS NOT ENFORCED AS ITALIAN REGISTERED ULM's OFTEN FLY OUTSIDE OF ITALY AND WHEN I CHECKED WHETHER I WOULD BE ALLOWED TO FLY THE SKYRANGER OUT OF ITALY, I WAS TOLD " IT HAPPENS") ( NOW AS TO THE PROHIBITION OF CAMERAS BEING ALLOWED ON THE FLIGHT, I KNOW MANY ULM PILOTS IN ITALY THAT TAKE PHOTOGRAPHS FROM THEIR ULM's... I WAITED UNTIL I CROSSED THE FIR BOUNDARY BEFORE I 'CLICKED AWAY')
                        • Identification of aircraft. All aircraft must have a metal plate with the identification number issued by the AeCI (Aero Club Italia). The same number must be fixed onto the underneath of the wing with letters that measure a minimum of 30x15 cm, in contrasting colour.
                          All identification documents must be kept on board. Any structural or colour modifications and changes of ownership must be comunicated to AeCI.
                        • Circulation specifications. It is possible fly from dawn till sunset at a maximum height of 500 ft (150 meters); on Saturday and holidays at a maximum height of 1000 ft (300 meters) ; at a distance of 5 Km from airports not located within ATZ . Maximum height is considered that measured with respect to the highest point within a radius of 3 Km. ( THIS IS PROBABLY THE CRAZIEST RESTRICTION I EVER ENCOUNTERED, I WAS CONFUSED AS TO WHAT I WAS SUPPOSED TO DO AT GENOVA..... ONE SPOT HEIGHT IS IN EXCESS OF 4000FT AND THEN 3.5KM AHEAD WAS SEA LEVEL !!! I WAS EXPECTED TO GO FROM 4500ft to 500ft TO COMPLY WITH THIS DRACONIAN RULE IN 3KM (VNAV PROFILE = 2,666fpm)
                        • Ability certificate. In order to fly it is necessary to have such a certificate issued after a course with examination taken in a certified flying school together with specific medical examination. ( THIS WAS THE ONLY PART THAT WORRIED ME AS I DIDN'T HAVE A ITALIAN VALIDATION ON MY LICENCE, BUT MY ICAO LICENCE COVERS THAT ANYWAY)

                          * Insurance. All aircraft must be covered by an insurance policy with a limit not less than 1 bilion of lira for accident, 1 bilion for person, 1 bilion for animals or objects. ( THE AIRCRAFT WAS INSURED AND THIS WAS FULLY SATISFIED)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          GRANDFATHER RIGHTS

                          Peter,

                          I've had a look at your list and it seems you were flying illegally before you even left Italy, and thats assuming your ICAO licence allows you to fly foreign microlights. (Don't see any evidence in that set of guidelines that it actually does though.)

                          Regards....Bill.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            GRANDFATHER RIGHTS

                            Bill Parker BMAA 6598 wrote:

                            Peter,

                            I've had a look at your list and it seems you were flying illegally before you even left Italy, and thats assuming your ICAO licence allows you to fly foreign microlights. (Don't see any evidence in that set of guidelines that it actually does though.)

                            Regards....Bill.

                            Peter answers...... Bill, I will indulge you.... I CHECKED THE REGULATIONS with AecI/ENAC/ENAV/FIVU and was 100% clear on what I was legally allowed to do and what was not allowed. I should point out I am open to criticism from people who have something valid to say, but in this instance I think it might be prudent for me to disregard your comments. I bet you even questioned your superiors when you were at school ? Just accept that there are some people who are superior to you and have probably been involved in flying for significantly longer than you and are prepared to enlighten you with snippets that could be useful to you, so sit back and digest the information and perhaps you will learn something that benefits you. I don't go through my flying life flaunting aviation law, but your ill informed mindset may see it that way. I could take a sabbatical for 5yrs and you wouldn't even scratch the surface of being able to conduct the type of flying I have done in that time. Without Prejudice, Peter :smilewinkgrin:

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              GRANDFATHER RIGHTS

                              Good grief... that told me did'nt it, :smilewinkgrin:

                              Without prejustice......Bill.

                              F2 Alpha jocky G-MVMO.

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