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Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

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  • #16
    Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

    John Otter wrote:
    Oh I give up . . .
    John
    Why - is the manchester one still misbehaving for you? Let me know as I thought I'd fixed it and it seems to work from my 'user' account

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    • #17
      Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

      Works for me...

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      • #18
        Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

        Tony Smith wrote:
        I note that the Wind Energy industry is citing the Mode S proposals as a solution for wind turbine interference with primary radar, by their logic once everyone has a transponder then primary radar becomes unimportant. In fact some planning applications are arguing that case in response to air traffic control objections.
        Just some comments on that

        - perhaps the energy industry are hinting they want to pay for all the mode s transponders as part of their installation programme? (I know that would not solve everyone's problem due to weight/space issues, but it would be very useful to many!)

        - South Africa were (not too long ago) mooting Mode C for everyone on a basis of throwing away all civvie primary radar, so that had huge 'savings' of maintenance or future upgrade costs for them. I can't remember what happened to the proposal in the end, but they still have primary radar!

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        • #19
          Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

          Irv,
          If I right click on the link and save, WMV-10 will open and play the link but not directly from the link so it's probably my problem. I'll have to investigate the WMV-10 settings.
          I, like everyone else on this forum, appreciate the time and effort you put in to trying to keep us all safe Irv, and long may you continue.
          Regards
          John

          Comment


          • #20
            Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

            Can anyone offer a reason why pilots that have Mode C don't automatically use it in preference to Mode A? I can understand the resentments for "S", but why "C"?
            John

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            • #21
              Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

              John Otter wrote:
              Can anyone offer a reason why pilots that have Mode C don't automatically use it in preference to Mode A? I can understand the resentments for "S", but why "C"?
              John
              funny, i just submitted an article with that in it...

              I get qualified PPLs for rental checkouts in our Cessnas - all have Mode A & C. I noticed well over 50% (60 -75%) of qualified PPLs just set Mode A even when assigned a squawk by ATC. So after beating them up, I usually asked why. Stunning responses:

              a) My instructor told me only to use A

              b) Mode C interferes with TCAS

              c) the CAA don't want Mode C as it clogs radar screens

              d) I don't know

              e) I wasn't told to.

              The last reveals a lot....

              I know a couple of pilots who have failed tests basically because they didn't bother to set mode C. Each was given a squawk by Farnborough, set Mode A only, and then headed towards a 'step down' in the LTMA. Although it's not their job, Farnborough are very good at spotting problems before they happen and warning, but without setting the 'C', they never spotted the problem so I had to take control to prevent a bust before it actually happened, and examiner taking control means 'fail'. if they'd set 'C' they would have had a early reminder from Farnborough and would have got away with it, claiming they were just about to descend (as you do).

              I also have heard of a syndicate who regularly fly in the corridor between Gatwick and Heathrow and can't agree whether they should use 'C' or not - and they are very experienced pilots.

              Basically you always use 'C' unless you are told not to do so as in an atc instruction 'stop charlie'. Being given a simple squawk 4 digit squawk code actually means 'with charlie' even if not said, if you read the AIP.

              Anyway, the good thing is I gave a talk (as part of the flyontrack work) to controllers about 3 years ago and they really did NOT believe me that this goes on - surely pilots can't really be so low on airmanship that they don't realise Mode C is needed if available? Anyway, over the next year or so, we did some localised tests around the country where pilots were assigned a squawk and then those observed setting alpha only were suddenly told to 'squawk charlie' and sure enough, some did!

              So they started to believe me, and the great thing was a year later at a different meeting on something else, a controller explained to me over coffee that would I believe it, some GA pilots actually have mode C and don't use it! (I took that as "success" on my convincing campaign). Since then, London Info now say "1177 with charlie" and we've had money spent on poster and advertising campaigns.

              If there are any incidents, it's much more likely that someone with "Mode C but not using it" would have some extra explaining to do to the investigators who decide where it goes.

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              • #22
                Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

                Good god Irv, what sort of pilots are the instructors sending out? All 5 of those reasons are instructor based. Do they have refresher courses, if so maybe it needs drumming into them the importance of using "C" when it's available. After all, if more used it and there were less busts there wouldn't be so much pressure on having "S". Even if they don't have refresher courses could they be all sent reminders/correction of importance leaflets about using "C"? This problem obviously needs attacking from the grass roots as you are doing and maybe ATCs should remind all pilots to use it as well? It will be a shame if we all have to go to mode S because of the lack of "C" use.
                Rant over, sorry.
                John

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                • #23
                  Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

                  that'll be this poster then Jiggles
                  http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/64/DAP_ACD_ModeC.pdf

                  I wonder how many read it?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

                    I reckon the real reason they don't use mode C is because they are afraid of being spotted infringing.
                    After all if you make a little mistake under the outer stubs of the Stansted zone while squawking 'A' (i.e. when up too high by 100-200ft) then you'd probably, in most instances, get away unnoticed. Ironically I think it may be a fear of making of fool of themselves which makes them squawk A only...

                    Well that's my theory anyway )

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

                      Surely they'll be noticed even if they haven't got a transponder at all, but with "C", radar knows if they are above, below or infringing?
                      John

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                      • #26
                        Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

                        If you fly under a stub you are not infringing... if you fly under this but then creep too high you are then infringing... if you have mode C then you will be noticed... if you only squawk mode A then ATC don't know your height, so there is nothing to say that you are infringing...

                        This link shows the issue really well.... (as intended)
                        http://www.flyontrack.co.uk/content/...#ID-2147483362

                        If you don't have a transponder they may see you on primary, but there is nothing to say you are flying too high and infringing into the stub (same as just using mode A).. So you get this... except this was into the main CTA! http://www.flyontrack.co.uk/content/...#ID-2147483368
                        Then people complain why we are being pushed to fit transponders...... :eyes:

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

                          John Otter wrote:
                          Surely they'll be noticed even if they haven't got a transponder at all, but with "C", radar knows if they are above, below or infringing?
                          John
                          that's the great danger - we're talking about CTAs - so GA is allowed to be underneath, so if no altitude is on the radar screen, the aircraft could actually be in the CTA and the controller still HAS to assume they are underneath (or no traffic would ever get anywhere in a CTA or airway). Now, if there was a 'worst case' incident in a CTA or TMA with a non Mode C infringer, GA in this country would not know what had hit it afterwards. In fact, there was such an incident in the USA which led to mode C veils, 30 mile radius Mode C mandatory zones around their major airfields.
                          There is a worrying radar replay on flyontrack - look at number 3, "Stansted CTA No Mode C"

                          ps: Andy got in first, I didn't notice!

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                          • #28
                            Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

                            Andy, I know that if you fly above or beneath then you are safe and legal, the trouble is that ATC don't know if you are above, below or smack bang in the middle and therefore have to treat the flight as an infringement. It's not about getting away with it, it's about others knowing that you and the other aircraft are safely seperated. I'm using "you" as the royal "you" not you personally by the way.
                            No one would expect radar to just assume that a small light aircraft was definitely flying at the correct height, and if I inadvertantly strayed vertically into a controlled zone I would be only too happy for ATC to tell me so.
                            John

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                            • #29
                              Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

                              John Otter wrote:
                              and therefore have to treat the flight as an infringement.
                              quite the opposite - they currently must treat it aas OUTSIDE and not an infringer - as the pilot is trained, the pilot should be competent, therefore the pilot is assumed to be where he/she should be How would any commercial traffic move anywhere other than in a CTR otherwise? - unless of course, everyone in the problem area (volume would be more accurate) had a Mode C transponder so the controller could see one way or the other....

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                              • #30
                                Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

                                Jiggles wrote: I know that if you fly above or beneath then you are safe and legal, the trouble is that ATC don't know if you are above, below or smack bang in the middle and therefore have to treat the flight as an infringement
                                NO! they will treat it as if you are NOT infringing... that is the point... otherwise they would never be able to let anybody below a stub who is not squawking mode C.

                                John what you describe there is exactly the justification for Transponder Mandatory Zones.

                                (looks like Irv beat me to it this time!)

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