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Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

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  • Andy_Fell
    replied
    Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

    If you fly under a stub you are not infringing... if you fly under this but then creep too high you are then infringing... if you have mode C then you will be noticed... if you only squawk mode A then ATC don't know your height, so there is nothing to say that you are infringing...

    This link shows the issue really well.... (as intended)
    http://www.flyontrack.co.uk/content/...#ID-2147483362

    If you don't have a transponder they may see you on primary, but there is nothing to say you are flying too high and infringing into the stub (same as just using mode A).. So you get this... except this was into the main CTA! http://www.flyontrack.co.uk/content/...#ID-2147483368
    Then people complain why we are being pushed to fit transponders...... :eyes:

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

    Surely they'll be noticed even if they haven't got a transponder at all, but with "C", radar knows if they are above, below or infringing?
    John

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  • Andy_Fell
    replied
    Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

    I reckon the real reason they don't use mode C is because they are afraid of being spotted infringing.
    After all if you make a little mistake under the outer stubs of the Stansted zone while squawking 'A' (i.e. when up too high by 100-200ft) then you'd probably, in most instances, get away unnoticed. Ironically I think it may be a fear of making of fool of themselves which makes them squawk A only...

    Well that's my theory anyway )

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  • Andy_Fell
    replied
    Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

    that'll be this poster then Jiggles
    http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/64/DAP_ACD_ModeC.pdf

    I wonder how many read it?

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

    Good god Irv, what sort of pilots are the instructors sending out? All 5 of those reasons are instructor based. Do they have refresher courses, if so maybe it needs drumming into them the importance of using "C" when it's available. After all, if more used it and there were less busts there wouldn't be so much pressure on having "S". Even if they don't have refresher courses could they be all sent reminders/correction of importance leaflets about using "C"? This problem obviously needs attacking from the grass roots as you are doing and maybe ATCs should remind all pilots to use it as well? It will be a shame if we all have to go to mode S because of the lack of "C" use.
    Rant over, sorry.
    John

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

    John Otter wrote:
    Can anyone offer a reason why pilots that have Mode C don't automatically use it in preference to Mode A? I can understand the resentments for "S", but why "C"?
    John
    funny, i just submitted an article with that in it...

    I get qualified PPLs for rental checkouts in our Cessnas - all have Mode A & C. I noticed well over 50% (60 -75%) of qualified PPLs just set Mode A even when assigned a squawk by ATC. So after beating them up, I usually asked why. Stunning responses:

    a) My instructor told me only to use A

    b) Mode C interferes with TCAS

    c) the CAA don't want Mode C as it clogs radar screens

    d) I don't know

    e) I wasn't told to.

    The last reveals a lot....

    I know a couple of pilots who have failed tests basically because they didn't bother to set mode C. Each was given a squawk by Farnborough, set Mode A only, and then headed towards a 'step down' in the LTMA. Although it's not their job, Farnborough are very good at spotting problems before they happen and warning, but without setting the 'C', they never spotted the problem so I had to take control to prevent a bust before it actually happened, and examiner taking control means 'fail'. if they'd set 'C' they would have had a early reminder from Farnborough and would have got away with it, claiming they were just about to descend (as you do).

    I also have heard of a syndicate who regularly fly in the corridor between Gatwick and Heathrow and can't agree whether they should use 'C' or not - and they are very experienced pilots.

    Basically you always use 'C' unless you are told not to do so as in an atc instruction 'stop charlie'. Being given a simple squawk 4 digit squawk code actually means 'with charlie' even if not said, if you read the AIP.

    Anyway, the good thing is I gave a talk (as part of the flyontrack work) to controllers about 3 years ago and they really did NOT believe me that this goes on - surely pilots can't really be so low on airmanship that they don't realise Mode C is needed if available? Anyway, over the next year or so, we did some localised tests around the country where pilots were assigned a squawk and then those observed setting alpha only were suddenly told to 'squawk charlie' and sure enough, some did!

    So they started to believe me, and the great thing was a year later at a different meeting on something else, a controller explained to me over coffee that would I believe it, some GA pilots actually have mode C and don't use it! (I took that as "success" on my convincing campaign). Since then, London Info now say "1177 with charlie" and we've had money spent on poster and advertising campaigns.

    If there are any incidents, it's much more likely that someone with "Mode C but not using it" would have some extra explaining to do to the investigators who decide where it goes.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

    Can anyone offer a reason why pilots that have Mode C don't automatically use it in preference to Mode A? I can understand the resentments for "S", but why "C"?
    John

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

    Irv,
    If I right click on the link and save, WMV-10 will open and play the link but not directly from the link so it's probably my problem. I'll have to investigate the WMV-10 settings.
    I, like everyone else on this forum, appreciate the time and effort you put in to trying to keep us all safe Irv, and long may you continue.
    Regards
    John

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

    Tony Smith wrote:
    I note that the Wind Energy industry is citing the Mode S proposals as a solution for wind turbine interference with primary radar, by their logic once everyone has a transponder then primary radar becomes unimportant. In fact some planning applications are arguing that case in response to air traffic control objections.
    Just some comments on that

    - perhaps the energy industry are hinting they want to pay for all the mode s transponders as part of their installation programme? (I know that would not solve everyone's problem due to weight/space issues, but it would be very useful to many!)

    - South Africa were (not too long ago) mooting Mode C for everyone on a basis of throwing away all civvie primary radar, so that had huge 'savings' of maintenance or future upgrade costs for them. I can't remember what happened to the proposal in the end, but they still have primary radar!

    Leave a comment:


  • Andy_Fell
    replied
    Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

    Works for me...

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

    John Otter wrote:
    Oh I give up . . .
    John
    Why - is the manchester one still misbehaving for you? Let me know as I thought I'd fixed it and it seems to work from my 'user' account

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

    Works for me.

    By the way, are the current Mode S proposals going to make transponders compulsory for all aircraft, even outside controlled airspace? I note that the Wind Energy industry is citing the Mode S proposals as a solution for wind turbine interference with primary radar, by their logic once everyone has a transponder then primary radar becomes unimportant. In fact some planning applications are arguing that case in response to air traffic control objections.

    If transponders aren't compulsory outside controlled airspace, then inadvertent entry like the Standstead case wouldn't be detected.

    Tony S

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

    Oh I give up . . .
    John

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

    I think the replays are up and working again now.... I'm sure I'll soon be told if not!

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

    Irv, the Manchester one starts Windows Media player but then WMV says it can't find the file. One thing I did notice, the Manchester link only has "fly on track" once in the address, all the rest have it twice.
    John

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