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Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

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  • #31
    Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

    Are you saying Irv, that an unidentified aircraft flying across an approach path will be deemed to be flying at the height he is supposed to be at?
    John

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    • #32
      Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

      Can someone explain the benefits of using mode C then please?
      John

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      • #33
        Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

        If you squawk mode C then it tells ATC what altitude you are at... so they will then know for sure if you are infringing a stub (for example). Check out the first link in my above post. the guy who is squawking mode A has to be assumed by ATC that he is below 1,500ft (i.e. not infringing)... but it transpired that he was at 3,000ft (i.e. f*&king close to that Ryanair on final approach to RWY23)... If he was squawking mode C then ATC would have known he was at 3,000ft and would have made the jet stay out of his way to avoid a potential collision.

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        • #34
          Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

          John Otter wrote:
          Are you saying Irv, that an unidentified aircraft flying across an approach path will be deemed to be flying at the height he is supposed to be at?
          John
          Yes - or in any volume of airspace where the '2d' position COULD be legal, an aircraft has to be deemed to be legal and outside controlled airspacde UNLESS it's known otherwise through mode c or a radio report.

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          • #35
            Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

            John - contrast the stansted one we have mentioned to the Luton bust - number 5 in the list from memory. Student (not squawking) enters the Luton CTR - as a CTR goes down to ground level and there is only controlled airspace vertically upwards, the controller INSTANTLY knows there is a problem as soon as the aircraft crosses the boundary, so alerts the commercial squawking 1435 on final approach to turn away whilst it is sort out, so the 1435 commecial is never in danger, just plenty of people on that flight and probably every flight that aircraft has to make for the rest of the day just very annoyed at delays. With the Stansted CTA one, the controller never suspects the guy is in the airspace. Now you know why they want a mode C TMZ.

            By the way, I personally don't think it is true that NATS is particularly interested in Mode S throughout the UK for everyone in any airspace. NATS would no doubt be pleased to get the Mode C within it under the CTAs and airways if someone else imposed it. I think NATS really just want either pilots to stay out of the controlled airspace if not cleared in, or Mode C where NATS have real problems with infringers. Remember NATS never claim Mode C will STOP all infringements, it merely allows them to keep their traffic away from the infringer as seen in a couple of replays where they knew an infringement was actually happening.

            It's also the case that if anyone had Mode C and was following the listening squawk idea, or taking a service from another unit with an allocated squawk, then of course the infringement might be stopped before it happened or very early on before it got to even redirecting other traffic.

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            • #36
              Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

              Oh now I see. But it's still a good safety measure and should be used when ever possible?
              John

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              • #37
                Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

                John Otter wrote:
                Oh now I see. But it's still a good safety measure and should be used when ever possible?
                John
                remove the 'but' and the '?' and you're there!

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                • #38
                  Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

                  Oh now I see. It's still a good safety measure and should be used when ever possible. ;-)
                  John

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                  • #39
                    Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

                    How's this wonderful new informing C or verbal, by wireless system proposed to become more widely used when we'll soon get all radio freqencies charged heavily by ofcom grandees ?

                    I'm not keen on spending £1000 plus plus for b**lloc* roasting gear.
                    The best I can offer whilst still free to talk is a radio call which is common courtesy, to ATC when flying close to the fringes of their own dotted line on the chart, to set their minds at rest as to height and location.

                    Mikehallam.

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                    • #40
                      Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

                      Irv,

                      I notice on your radar replay page (clip 7) the following:

                      The 4 aircraft broken off approach were all delayed by 8 minutes but also 10 aircraft that were already in the holding stacks were also delayed 8 minutes. This gives a total delay for all aircraft of 2 hours and if you consider the average size of the delayed aircraft involved was a Boeing 737 (which burns around 2.5 tonnes of fuel an hour while holding) itís a costly business.

                      That infringer's carbon footprint must be through the roof! :shocked:

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                      • #41
                        Airspace Infringements - Radar Replays

                        Mikehallam,

                        .. then join the debate on the stansted TMZ consultation

                        http://forums.bmaa.org/default.aspx?f=15&m=40947

                        ... think we dried up a bit on that one... but you could fire it up again Mike :-)

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