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  • Ed 42 1:500 map

    Can anyone clarify something for me?, when I was at the flying show before Christmas I was talking to the guys on the Runway HD stand and they said that you don't have to have a paper chart in the plane now if you have their maps on the I Pad (they use CAA charting) but at a recent pilots meeting a senior LAA inspector said it would invalidate insurance and is illegal to fly without a paper map on board.

  • #2
    Ed 42 1:500 map

    funnily enough I was reading about the same issue yesterday on pprune

    http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...fr-charts.html
    subscribe to Microlight Flying eNews here : http://dm-mailinglist.com/subscribe?f=c4198184

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    • #3
      Ed 42 1:500 map

      yeah, this is a topic that turns up every so often. This PPrune post matches my understanding. Easiest seems to be to mark up chart with new obstacles listed on the NATS web site, here, that are relevant to your expected flying. Of course, I don't expect anybody will be interested what form of chart you carry unless you bust airspace or bump into something. Then they'd probably be very interested.

      I think it's down to your own sense of responsibility really.

      PS of course it's possible there's an insurance clause requiring you to carry a current paper chart. Couldn't find one in mine though :-)

      Edit: PS added

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      • #4
        Ed 42 1:500 map

        Thanks Dominic & Joan, I suppose bit of a grey area until an accident happens. We always fly with the I Pad and back up on Phone.

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        • #5
          Ed 42 1:500 map

          From memory, I believe the requirement is
          "a chart suitable for the proposed flight"... (or similar wording)
          Thus, I guess if only in uncontrolled airspace away from any military/danger area/airfields etc, a "Little Chef" map could meet the requirement:-)
          ... or presumably a "sketch on a Fag Packet"!! :rofl:

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          • #6
            Ed 42 1:500 map

            If I am remebering correctly you must have a current up to date map of the area that you will or are flying in, it can be a copy or a mm map or whatever as long as its up to date of that area.

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            • #7
              Ed 42 1:500 map

              And if your ultra clever tablet with your entire life and your map on it croaks whilst you are still flying, you no longer have a current map of the area you are flying in.

              Error 53, anyone?

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              • #8
                Ed 42 1:500 map

                Joan Walsh wrote:

                I think it's down to your own sense of responsibility really.
                I totally agree. There can't be hard and fast rules on this. Think of these scenarios:

                1. I'm flying only in East Anglia with the most recent edition of the 1:500k, but the frequency for Exeter airport has been notified as being changed. But I dont bother to mark it on the chart. Is that OK? Am I flying with a "current" chart?

                2. I'm flying with the most recent edition, so I think its "current", but some airspace has changed since it was printed and I bust it. Can I claim it wasnt my fault because it wasn't on the chart?

                3. I'm flying with a 1:250K chart which isn't updated as often as the 1:500k, but it is the most recent edition. Is that OK?

                4. I'm flying with an old edition of the chart but I've been diligent and kept looking at the updates and I know that there have been no amendments in the area I'm flying in. Is that OK? What if I cut up the chart and take with me only the portion covering the area I'm flying in which is identical to the current edition?

                Of course one of the beauties of SkyDemon et al is that the chart updates are done atomatically...
                Martin Watson
                Microlights in Norfolk
                Fixed Wing Instruction - Exams and GSTs - Revalidations
                07805 716407

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                • #9
                  Ed 42 1:500 map

                  Martin Watson wrote:
                  Of course one of the beauties of SkyDemon et al is that the chart updates are done automatically...
                  Are they? Or does a human have to modify an airspace file on a server, then flag it as modified so the software on the client machine knows to download it and do a replace?

                  And if that process fails, will the pilot be caught out because he/she expects the modifications to airspace to be there automatically, and no longer reads the AIP/NOTAMs for the same reason?

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                  • #10
                    Ed 42 1:500 map

                    No. They are updated automatically on the AIRAC cycle.

                    For example, ELMD is still shown on the Luxembourg chart, in spite of a NOTAM dated 4 January stating AD PERMANENTLY CLOSED.

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                    • #11
                      Ed 42 1:500 map

                      Skydemon is good for that... It's always more current than a traditional paper chart!

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                      • #12
                        Ed 42 1:500 map

                        Andy Fell wrote: Skydemon is good for that... It's always more current than a traditional paper chart!
                        Other file based moving map systems are also available, with the same..... I fly with paper and tablet..... no harm in a second option.....

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                        • #13
                          Ed 42 1:500 map

                          Steve Uzochukwu wrote:
                          Originally posted by Andy Fell
                          Skydemon is good for that... It's always more current than a traditional paper chart!
                          Other file based moving map systems are also available, with the same..... I fly with paper and tablet..... no harm in a second option.....
                          Yes indeed, I carry a 1:500 on my lap as well, but to be honest when I'm running skydemon I don't look at it much! The paper chart is more of a backup, just in case the tablet croaks.

                          Although really, even if the tablet did croak, you can soon enough land and sort it all out (if paper chart is in a pocket somewhere). Or just get phone out of pocket which is also running Skydemon.

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                          • #14
                            Ed 42 1:500 map

                            Talking of paper chart reliability...mid 1990s and low hours, dared myself to go over the moors to Barton from South Cave; easy nav as you can just follow the M62, but on the way back (this is pre Flylight's excellent Map Board IIRC) had to withdraw and swap over the map. This promptly got away as a Flash One screen isn't as effective as today's P&M offerings.

                            Faced with a flapping ever-increasing streamer, it all got stuffed down the part-unzipped flying suit neck and calm flight resumed until Leeds ATC were called up...

                            'G-MTKV is a flexwing Microlight en route Barton - South Cave near Hull, height 2,500 etc etc'

                            ATC:- 'thank you Golf Kilo Victor, your Position?' (at which request I think, oh sh*t, no map to look at, will get rollocking)

                            'Er..G-MTKV is just coming down from er, the tops' (Was over the mid-Pennines sprawl East of Rochdale)

                            ATC:- 'The TOPS? What are 'THE TOPS?''

                            'Upper part of the moors sir...oh, hang on, overhead the car Auctions, G-MTKV'

                            ATC:- 'WHICH Car Auctions?'

                            'I'll circle down and read the sign sir'

                            ATC:- Don't bother, I know where you are'

                            Stung by his tone, after a while called up and advised 'G-MTKV is overhead IKEA'

                            ATC:- 'Oh very good, is the Burger King open?'

                            At which point it dawned he was taking the mickey.

                            Final call from ATC:- 'G-MTKV, would you call up Humberside now please'...
                            G-KEVA
                            BMAA 5696

                            "If anybody ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me: it's all balls."

                            R.J. Mitchell :- Designer of the Supermarine Spitfire

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                            • #15
                              Ed 42 1:500 map

                              Steve Uzochukwu wrote: And if your ultra clever tablet with your entire life and your map on it croaks whilst you are still flying, you no longer have a current map of the area you are flying in.

                              Error 53, anyone?
                              and if the velcro elastic strap behind my knees 'croaks' then it's goodbye paper map (as per Kev's great post ).
                              Here's a conversation between me, Newcastle ATC and a 737 inbound.
                              (I was flying a Blade and the wind at 2500 feet was about 45mph on the nose)
                              Newcastle: KLM flight - some traffic information standby
                              Newcastle: KLM - we think it is a balloon.
                              KLM - Copy - will report visual
                              Meattempting to cross the Tyne at 2500 but not there yet and a bit miffed) Newcastle - the balloon you have on radar is actually a flexwing microlight GMYXN en route to Eshott, current position just south of your zone with a ground speed of about 10 knots
                              Newcastle: Ah - thank you GMYXN standby'
                              Newcastle: GMYXN - could you let some air out and descend to 1500ft

                              Mike

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