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FASVIG airspace proposals.

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  • FASVIG airspace proposals.

    Worth a read. The proposals in this document would have a very positive effect on our kind of flying.

  • #2
    Originally posted by tomshep View Post
    Worth a read. The proposals in this document would have a very positive effect on our kind of flying.
    That's a really good paper, especially relevant to vfr flying in the crowded UK South East. The FASVIG views on reducing CAS by adopting RNAV flight path clearances would release lots of what is currently CAS around London and Stansted. The views on uncoordinated VFR route flying is especially true - in many years of flying I can only remember one occasion when one ATC unit passed my details onto the next ATC unit, and they were both military! Well done RAF Benson and RAF Brize Norton. In contrast, on several occasions I have been dropped by Farnborough North 15 miles short of my destination when on a basic service, and told to free-call my destination. Good paper and interesting appendices.


    • #3
      Yes Alan, I like this from Appendix C:
      "However, the CAA RTF Phraseology Working Group appears resistant to change or modernisation." *

      "ATSOCAS categories are not ICAO standard, not understood by many UK pilots and very rarely understood by pilots from other states" reminds me of an instructor workshop a few years ago when the CAA rep was (metaphorically) torn to pieces by a room full of microlight instructors while he tried to explain the then-new ATSOCAS.

      * I accept that some of my postings in another thread may seem to indicate that I, too, am "resistant to change or modernisation"
      The pilot formerly posting as MadamBreakneck
      R examiner and TST pilot.


      • #4
        At the risk of going off topic a bit, I would say that being resistant to change is not always a bad thing. There can be resistance just because "we've always done it this way" (bad), and resistance because "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" (good).
        I'll leave it to the reader to decide which applies where
        Martin Watson
        Microlights in Norfolk
        Fixed Wing Instruction - Exams and GSTs - Revalidations
        07805 716407


        • #5
          I might add another one:
          "We've always broke it this way and we'll always fix it this way".

          Which is just a slightly more verbose version of "yes sir, they all do that".

          With apologies for side-tracking...
          Last edited by Pete Twissell; 20th November 2017, 17:23. Reason: off topic apology
          Pete T.

          "A closed mouth gathers no feet".


          • #6
            FASVIG get their funding from an investment board chaired by the CAA but populated by CAT representatives. It has only been funded for another three months.
            Looks very much if FASVIG will be murdered in its bed.


            • #7
              I am glad to report that FASVIG are to be funded until the end of next year.
              While the Flyer forum is busily plunging knives into the organisation, microlighters stand to benefit from their proposals. FASVIG need to be encouraged to put these proposals before the APPG so that the politicians can be given the message.


              • #8
                Apropos this, I've just received the following from the APPG into my inbox. I thought I'd share it.

                Dear Joan

                This is just a short and sweet update as we head towards the Summer Recess in Parliament but an important one none-the-less.

                The All-Party Parliamentary Group on Generl Aviation is concerned at the Airspace Change around Farnborough, approved by the CAA last week. Following a Management Team meeting yesterday and having taken advice from our Airspace Working Group, we have issued the following Press Release which we wanted to share with our stakeholders as soon as possible.


                The All-Party Parliamentary Group (APPG) on General Aviation has announced it intends to investigate the way that airspace changes are processed by the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) in the UK. The Parliamentary Group’s announcement comes in the wake of a controversial decision to grant controlled zones to a further large swathe of South East airspace near Farnborough.

                The wide-ranging Inquiry by parliamentarians will study the CAA’s current powers and make recommendations on how the law might be changed to address deficiencies in the current process. In addition to making representations to ministers, MPs and Lords may also introduce legislation to change the current law.

                The all-party group will invite stakeholders to submit evidence, then hold Hearings in the House of Commons as part of their Inquiry. With the full Terms of Reference to be published in due course...<snip>

                You can read the rest at the APPG's web site here.

                Just a reminder to those died-in-the-wool microlighters amongst us who say "I'm not *@*#* GA!". These people lump us in with GA, so we can and should get involved.

                PS. I've started a seperate thread in the Airspace Restrictions forum. Maybe that'd be a better place to discuss this.
                Last edited by Joan Walsh; 17th July 2018, 15:33. Reason: PS
                The pilot formerly posting as MadamBreakneck
                R examiner and TST pilot.


                • #9
                  Well done Joan. We should fight the Farnborough decision all the way. It is purely an airspace land grab designed to eliminate any delays for wealthy business customers flying their highly inefficient and polluting business jets in and out. They should use public transport or get on their bike.

                  Farnborough say that they handle 7000 business movements annually. Sounds a lot doesn't it? But don't have any sympathy for them because that only amounts to an average of just over 19 movements per day. Less than 2 per hour in a 10 hour day. Hardly a busy place and this amount of traffic certainly doesn't warrant disrupting a large swaith of southern England airspace, and inconveniencing many more people than use Farnborough.

                  What on earth were the CAA thinking of? Were there bribes involved? If not then it must be incompetence and a total disregard for GA and microlighting. They do know about microlighting, don't they?


                  • #10

                    Money talks! And as far as they're concerned, microlighters can walk!
                    XL's forever! Well, one of them anyway. It's all I can afford, not to mention the Raven and the Mini-Max. Oh, and I almost forgot the Spectrum as well :-)


                    • #11
                      But only where they are allowed


                      • #12
                        Further, received today

                        When I recently wrote to you I mentioned the All-Party Parliamentary Group on General Aviation had announced it intended to hold an Airspace Inquiry. Details are now confirmed with the following Call for Evidence published today:

                        18th September 2018

                        Airspace Inquiry - Terms of Reference and Call for Evidence

                        The All-Party Parliamentary Group on General Aviation (APPG-GA) is parliament’s largest APPG, With 174 MPs and Peers[1]. The parliamentary group works to educate parliamentarians and ministers about the role that aviation plays in society and our economic nation’s prosperity. The APPG has five expert Working Groups covering Airfields, Airspace, Tax & Regulations, Heritage Aviation and STEM Jobs & Skills.

                        The APPG-GA believes that the UK’s airspace belongs to everyone. Removing it from certain users must come with responsibilities. Equitable access is therefore paramount.

                        This paper has been produced by the Airspace Working Group and follows the announcement during July 2018 that the APPG-GA intends to investigate the way that airspace is managed in the UK.

                        Inquiry Purpose and Scope

                        The inquiry will study all components of governance and process that result in airspace decisions and make recommendations on how to improve the current system. In addition to making representations to ministers on the findings, MPs and Lords may wish to introduce legislation to change the current law.

                        Focussing primarily on lower airspace, the inquiry is likely to cover topics such as;

                        Current and potential future issues relating to the overall strategy, policy and principal mechanics guiding airspace design, management and the measurement of effective performance
                        The principal current and potential future influences on airspace strategy and policy as identified by different stakeholder groups
                        The underlying principles that should be used to guide all airspace-related matters (e.g. proportionality; need to maintain currency/relevance of designs; retire designs when no longer required; periodic independent reviews - e.g. by National Audit Office - of the efficiency and effectiveness of airspace strategy, policy and specific mechanisms; equitable consideration of all stakeholder groups; requirement for evidence-based inputs; reference to best practice; etc.)
                        Assessment of the efficiency and effectiveness of current airspace-related processes
                        Delegations of authority, including the allocation of accountabilities, responsibilities, roles and interests
                        The role of non-governmental organisations that are a part of the established airspace system (e.g. NATS)
                        The case for making change in priority geographical areas
                        Whether airspace change sponsors should make financial contributions in return for taking away airspace from other users – similar to so-called Section 106 provisions in national planning policy

                        Airspace Report Recommendations

                        The all-party group will invite stakeholders to submit evidence through a formal Call for Evidence process, hold Hearings in the Palace of Westminster as part of their Inquiry, and produce a written report. The report, which will include specific recommendations, is expected to cover:

                        Governance and management of the UK’s airspace
                        Parliamentary and ministerial oversight
                        Government role
                        CAA roles and responsibilities
                        NATS roles and responsibilities
                        What the overarching policy objectives should be for airspace
                        What measures should be in place to increase efficiency and ensure equitable access for all airspace users
                        What measures should be in place to monitor and withdraw underutilised areas of controlled airspace
                        What measures should be in place to ensure governance and process remains fit for purpose
                        And who pays

                        Next Steps

                        A general Call for Evidence opens today and will close on 31st October 2018.

                        Formal invitations will be issued to certain stakeholders, but any organisation that wishes to present evidence and make representations should do so in written format addressing the broad headings in this Terms of Reference discussion paper to present their evidence. Please email:

                        Please note that your evidence will ordinarily be published.

                        Witness invitations to give evidence will be sent out in November. Based on the Call for Evidence response, APPG-GA intend to hold a number of oral witness hearing sessions in the Palace of Westminster. These will be both broadcast live and taped.

                        Follow up

                        The APPG-GA Airspace Inquiry report will be published in 2019. This will include recommendations for ministers. A formal response to the report will be requested from government ministers. MPs and Peers may decide to introduce legislation in order to bring findings into effect.


                        Kind regards,

                        Matthew Bolshaw
                        Public Liaison Officer to the All-Party Parliamentary Group on General Aviation
                        The pilot formerly posting as MadamBreakneck
                        R examiner and TST pilot.