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  • #16
    What tomshep said
    Martin Watson
    Microlights in Norfolk
    Fixed Wing Instruction - Exams and GSTs - Revalidations
    07805 716407

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    • #17
      Nicely put Tom, however it does depend on what your own personal objective is.

      If getting to the distant destination is you goal then there is a deal to be said for solid, reliable and dull, but your personal mission is to just enjoy the flying itself then there is much to be said for either the lighter end of things. There are of course some fun light aircraft although the more interesting ones tend to be at the high end of the price range.

      Comment


      • #18
        Thanks for the messages all. For me, flying is not 'being a bird'. I'm not after the wind on my face sort of thing; I want to control and navigate an aircraft. In a perfect world I'd love to go all the way to CPL and make a career but as I said in my OP, it's not within my grasp. I have too many limiting factors sadly but I'd be happy pursuing it as a career. Edit: That sounds really rude and almost condescending reading it back; I don't mean for it to be, just struggled to put my point across in a better way ha.

        With that said, I don't know what my actual goal is yet, but I think realistically NPPL (M) is what I can afford. When I watch the likes of plane old Ben or Rory on air I think that thay is what I want to aim for. I know Ben is going towards ATPL, with Rory being more a casual hobbyist. I don't think a single seat flex wing is my thing. I don't mean to cause any offense, I just know roughly what I want to fly. I think I'll book a lesson in a eurostar at a local club and see how I feel in that.

        Regarding flying post license, do most people on here own/have a share in an aircraft? Or do people still book out club aircraft at hourly rates? What's the common route that most take?

        Is it wrong that the radiotelephony and air navigation are actually an appealing part of it? I expect that I'll be terrified making my first calls but leaning about it is very interesting.
        Last edited by Harry Marshall; 26th December 2018, 20:01.

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        • #19
          Harry
          In your OP you mentioned going to Eshott - it's a great club and a well run school. I'd definitely start there.
          Make sure you hang around the airfield before and after your lessons and talk with people and listen to their enthusiasm! Pretty much all types of leisure flying are to be had in the microlight world (bar carrying more than one passenger and flying on instruments). A Eurostar is capable of touring all over Europe if that's what you want.
          All at a fraction of the cost of "GA" flying (I put that in inverted commas because microlights are a type of GA really).
          What you're seeking on this thread is our standard defensive argument against those who still think microlight means a lawnmower engine strapped to a deck chair, or that it isn't "proper" flying in some way.
          Getting good at r/t and navigation is a great thing to do. Where did anyone say it wasn't?
          Your question about ownership Vs rental is a good one. The number of microlight pilots who rent is very small, mostly because fewer are available for hire and because ownership is financially more possible. The other option which is becoming increasingly popular is to buy into a syndicate - a small group - making owning something like a Eurostar more easy.
          Martin Watson
          Microlights in Norfolk
          Fixed Wing Instruction - Exams and GSTs - Revalidations
          07805 716407

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Martin Watson View Post
            Harry
            In your OP you mentioned going to Eshott - it's a great club and a well run school. I'd definitely start there.
            Make sure you hang around the airfield before and after your lessons and talk with people and listen to their enthusiasm! Pretty much all types of leisure flying are to be had in the microlight world (bar carrying more than one passenger and flying on instruments). A Eurostar is capable of touring all over Europe if that's what you want.
            All at a fraction of the cost of "GA" flying (I put that in inverted commas because microlights are a type of GA really).
            What you're seeking on this thread is our standard defensive argument against those who still think microlight means a lawnmower engine strapped to a deck chair, or that it isn't "proper" flying in some way.
            Getting good at r/t and navigation is a great thing to do. Where did anyone say it wasn't?
            Your question about ownership Vs rental is a good one. The number of microlight pilots who rent is very small, mostly because fewer are available for hire and because ownership is financially more possible. The other option which is becoming increasingly popular is to buy into a syndicate - a small group - making owning something like a Eurostar more easy.
            Thanks for the reply. Yeah I'm used to the club aspect thanks to several years of RC flying.

            I don't think that that's what microlight flying entails but I just know that flex wing is not for me. I want to fly 3 axis

            I didn't say or mean to imply that r/t navigation wasn't enjoyed, I just meant that it seems to be possibly the harder part of the studies but that I'm looking forward to learning them in more depth. The syndicate option looks to be popular as you say but I'm getting ahead of myself; I haven't even officially started my lessons. I'll head up to eshott and book a flight in the eurostar and go from there

            Comment


            • #21
              Radio and navigation are two different things. Radio is a separate exam, navigation is done from first principles although GPS is beginning to be taught. Two things to try: The C42 is one. A comfy real aeroplane, easier to fly and to learn on than that Eurostar. Looks like a Cessna but flies better on half the fuel. The other is to buy a current copy of the microlight handbook. It will teach you all the theory for about £20 and it will teach you about all you need to know about weather including the secret that every microlight pilot knows- how to tell rain from drizzle. It is a good read in its own right. Buy a chart as well. It rewards study because aeronautical charts have a key and method of their own. Enjoy the Eurostar.

              Comment


              • #22
                My apologies, I see you have tried the 42 already. The Eurostar is different but you will find that out for yourself.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by tomshep View Post
                  Radio and navigation are two different things. Radio is a separate exam, navigation is done from first principles although GPS is beginning to be taught. Two things to try: The C42 is one. A comfy real aeroplane, easier to fly and to learn on than that Eurostar. Looks like a Cessna but flies better on half the fuel. The other is to buy a current copy of the microlight handbook. It will teach you all the theory for about £20 and it will teach you about all you need to know about weather including the secret that every microlight pilot knows- how to tell rain from drizzle. It is a good read in its own right. Buy a chart as well. It rewards study because aeronautical charts have a key and method of their own. Enjoy the Eurostar.

                  Thanks. I've flown the c42 and ct2k and thoroughly enjoyed them. I preferred the interior of the c42 but the performance of the ct2k. The eurostar looks great fun, and particularly good for spotting other traffic,not that that's a huge deciding factor.

                  Oh I get that they're entirely separate, just look fun and challenging.

                  I already have the Brian Cosgrove 8th edition handbook and am about halfway through, and have been studying all the NPPL topics using various online resources. I must have spent several dozen hours reading and doing practice exams,not to mention all the YouTube videos which has helped my understanding of radio calls to no end. Not saying I'm anywhere near ready but it's a start

                  Thanks!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Harry Marshall View Post
                    ... good for spotting other traffic,not that that's a huge deciding factor.
                    I suspect your instructor will stress the value of spotting other traffic

                    Originally posted by Harry Marshall View Post
                    ...it's a start

                    Thanks!
                    That's where we all began - whatever it is that motivates you to fly; enjoy;.
                    The pilot formerly posting as MadamBreakneck
                    R examiner and TST pilot.
                    and now a Tai Chi instructor

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Harry Marshall View Post
                      Back to learning... I have a few concerns; the main and most obvious is the cost. I appreciate that it is far from a cheap hobby but relatively speaking, the NPPL is the cheapest. If my immediate goal is to get NPPL and fly for fun, what's the best way to go about it? Fly as funds allow and pay on a per lesson basis, then investigate shares in an aircraft? My research into costs has illuminated how training pans out, but I'm a little clueless as to what happens after that. Realistically, time and money would only afford me 1 flight a month, but I'd happily do more if circumstances were to change. Do 'graduates' tend to join a club and just fly at the hourly rate?
                      I've purposely referred back to your OP and specifically your comments on cost.
                      as a pilot it is easy to have dreams larger than your wallet if only because there is always something "sexier" to fly, that is unless your 30-something, with 2000+ hours in your logbook, you're called "Sir", are saluted and wear G-pants for flying! (ie a military fast-jet pilot)

                      It would seem you are well setup for training on Microlights having had a a few taster sessions and in different aircraft. But, and prepare for the cliche, your flying career only starts once you have your licence, not at the first lesson.

                      you mention above "time and money would only afford 1 flight a month" - so it would seem you already have a monthly figure to put towards flying, be that lessons or post-training for your enjoyment.

                      As Tomshep has indicated, a cost comparison for an assumed 25hours/year pilot will perhaps help your decision.

                      25hours hire of a Cessna 152 could end up being more expensive than 35hours ownership in a microlight syndicate!
                      Ok so the year 1 expense is large in the microlight option to purchase say £4-5k share, but from year 2 that figure drops significantly and is a predictable cost based simply on how often you choose to fly


                      In fact as it’s a slow NYE in the office I have done the maths for you.

                      I have based the numbers on flying a PA-28 from Eden Flight school
                      And a purchase of a Eurostar syndicate from Eurostar on Afors (the latest (flying) Eurostar syndicate – I know not local but I had to go with something)

                      AC ownership.jpg


                      Note the highlighted hours per year
                      After 5 years flying twice the number of hours you’re "out of pocket" with ownership (ok only just), while with a realistic 25 hours you’ve saved half the cost.
                      Disclaimer: these figures are taken on face value. This does not take into account any price fluctuations or restrictions upon hire – Note Eden Flight Training require you to fly at least every 30 days else you need to pay for a check flight.
                      What is not included is membership. A syndicate aircraft maybe at an airfield requiring membership – although this is typically <£100 for a microlight club.
                      Also note that the example is a 1/15th share. You may decide to invest your £5k in something you’ll have more chance to fly 1/6th share C42 *Afors Link*.

                      The advantages of syndicate flying are many and varied. Apart from the cost advantage there is chance to make friends, gain flying experiences/learning from others and flying companions by joining other syndicate members.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Yes, many an intangible there. If a fellow part owner has languages, you might do trips abroad and learn foreign airfield terminology. One might be an ace mechanic so you learn how to look after an aircraft. Another might be a long distance navigation specialist. You will learn a lot from them all but the thing you will learn most about will be yourself.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          The best advice anyone ever gave me when I was thinking of actually pursuing my childhood dream was, "Stop thinking about it and just get on with it."

                          Later I came to know this approach in another context as JFDI. Work that out for yourself...
                          Martin Watson
                          Microlights in Norfolk
                          Fixed Wing Instruction - Exams and GSTs - Revalidations
                          07805 716407

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Peter Davies View Post
                            snip...
                            But, and prepare for the cliche, your flying career only starts once you have your licence, not at the first lesson.
                            .. big snip of some good stuff...
                            Permit me, please, to disagree there: I believe a person's flying career starts with the first flight - even as a passenger. For many it stops shortly after the first landing. Those of us who now glory in the status of being qualified and experienced pilots (whatever class of aircraft) must surely remember all those early steps along the way. I'd say they count too.

                            I do agree with your analysis of the costs*. I came to very similar conclusions when contemplating setting up my very first syndicate over 20 years ago. The caveat is that you must feel confident that you are able to trust your syndicate partners - your life may depend on them owning up to any whoopsies they had whilst flying the aeroplane you share.

                            HNY

                            *in principle, I've not checked your working.
                            The pilot formerly posting as MadamBreakneck
                            R examiner and TST pilot.
                            and now a Tai Chi instructor

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Peter Davies View Post
                              I've purposely referred back to your OP and specifically your comments on cost.
                              as a pilot it is easy to have dreams larger than your wallet if only because there is always something "sexier" to fly, that is unless your 30-something, with 2000+ hours in your logbook, you're called "Sir", are saluted and wear G-pants for flying! (ie a military fast-jet pilot)

                              It would seem you are well setup for training on Microlights having had a a few taster sessions and in different aircraft. But, and prepare for the cliche, your flying career only starts once you have your licence, not at the first lesson.

                              you mention above "time and money would only afford 1 flight a month" - so it would seem you already have a monthly figure to put towards flying, be that lessons or post-training for your enjoyment.

                              As Tomshep has indicated, a cost comparison for an assumed 25hours/year pilot will perhaps help your decision.

                              25hours hire of a Cessna 152 could end up being more expensive than 35hours ownership in a microlight syndicate!
                              Ok so the year 1 expense is large in the microlight option to purchase say £4-5k share, but from year 2 that figure drops significantly and is a predictable cost based simply on how often you choose to fly


                              In fact as it’s a slow NYE in the office I have done the maths for you.

                              I have based the numbers on flying a PA-28 from Eden Flight school
                              And a purchase of a Eurostar syndicate from Eurostar on Afors (the latest (flying) Eurostar syndicate – I know not local but I had to go with something)

                              [ATTACH=CONFIG]142[/ATTACH]


                              Note the highlighted hours per year
                              After 5 years flying twice the number of hours you’re "out of pocket" with ownership (ok only just), while with a realistic 25 hours you’ve saved half the cost.
                              Disclaimer: these figures are taken on face value. This does not take into account any price fluctuations or restrictions upon hire – Note Eden Flight Training require you to fly at least every 30 days else you need to pay for a check flight.
                              What is not included is membership. A syndicate aircraft maybe at an airfield requiring membership – although this is typically <£100 for a microlight club.
                              Also note that the example is a 1/15th share. You may decide to invest your £5k in something you’ll have more chance to fly 1/6th share C42 *Afors Link*.

                              The advantages of syndicate flying are many and varied. Apart from the cost advantage there is chance to make friends, gain flying experiences/learning from others and flying companions by joining other syndicate members.
                              Wow, thank you so much for spending that time. Hugely appreciated. I'm definitely of the persuasion that microlight flying is the most accessible for me, however what I'm still not set on is which license to attain. As it stands microlight hours will not count towards LAPL validation, however I have been informed that this may be changing; there are apparently plans to allow 3 axis microlight hours to validate lapl requirements? If this is the case, I'd love to gain the LAPL license with the intention of flying primarily 3 axos microlights after passing. This would afford meeasier future options should I choose to progress later down the line. A small 1/6 or so syndicate in a microlight would be tempting, however I'm not sure how I'd feel about a larger group. It's way down the line yet anyway, but at least I have lots of time to look into options.

                              Not buying into a syndicate etc., one would still be looking at £120+ per hour even on a C42 etc?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Harry Marshall View Post
                                I'd love to gain the LAPL license with the intention of flying primarily 3 axos microlights after passing.
                                you say primarily - what would be your secondary option?

                                I am purposely asking the direct/difficult/devils advocate question to encourage thought.

                                If you're looking at 3-axis microlights aim for the licence which best suits that style of flying.
                                People don't go out and get a bus or lorry licence to drive a car, so why go to the effort of a LAPL for Microlights?
                                Yes ok I understand it opens doors for secondary flying - but what will that be, and for what purpose?
                                LAPL only really offers bigger aircraft which comes with the advantage of 2 or three mates joining you rather than 1 (ie has 4 seats not two).
                                firstly - are you likely to have two or three mates wanting to join you? If so how often can you see this occurring? And do you have access to such an aircraft at an affordable price?

                                looking at Purple aviation (based on other comments I am guessing your local school) for the same 30 hours you'll pay almost a grand more for the LAPL licence.
                                That is £1000 which could go towards a syndicate a/c
                                that is almost a year's flying for me - fuel, servicing, inspection, insurance (although not including hangerage)

                                much like purchasing/syndicate that extra £1000 will dissolve into mediocrity overtime as it will be the annual running costs which will be of interest.

                                I am in Newbury and have Membury flying club 20 minutes away. They hired a C42 for £70/hour....the 2019 price is now £85. That is now getting close to, if not is, too expensive for me to consider. I own a Flexwing and have C42 conversion for "winter flying" when I want to scratch the flying itch but with some comfort from the winter weather.
                                I only expected to do 2-3 hours flying in the winter, and in my first year i did 5 hours. but two winters on I've not flown the C42 since - it would seem the winter itch is not as big as i first thought and at £85/hour needs to get bigger still.

                                my hourly rate for my Flexwing is ~£20 (15litres/hour @£1.20/litre = £18 so £20 for easy maths).
                                at £70/hour for the C42 for 3 hours in the Winter = £210 but at £85/hour that is an extra £45 or 2 hours flexwing flight time

                                put another way those three hours @ £85/hour winter flying cost me the same as half of my annual flying time = £255 (12hours > £255/£20per hour) which is a big chunk.

                                with your LAPL you can fly something more than a microlight, but you won't necessary get there any quicker, almost certainly cost more fuel (should you need to fill up) and the hire costs will be significant.
                                I am not saying don't do it, although appreciate it sounds that way, just trying to get you think about justifying it.
                                my 3 axis conversation was only two hours (~£200) and so far have got 5 hours flying from that - so lets say i have invested £40/hour of C42 flying which is only twice the cost of a flying hour.
                                at £1000 extra for the LAPL, and an assumed £40/hour syndicate rate (see previous post) you'd need to fly 12.5 hours before the LAPL has given you a twice the flying rate return (£1000/80 (twice hourly rate) = 12.5)
                                that is half my annual flying hours target

                                I have since looked into expanding my horizons for my NPPL(M) I considered looking at the NPPL(A) with the hope to fly motorised gliders, but the extra cost of the training, and the few occasions I would use that add on I couldn't justify it.

                                Perhaps you can - and if so as as Martin Watson said before, just do it.
                                What is £1000 for the extra cost if you'll use it what it offers you??

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