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Changes to the Self Declaration Medical system - 25 August 2016

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  • Changes to the Self Declaration Medical system - 25 August 2016

    Further to my earlier posts here, the current situation is that a meeting between the BMAA, LAA, BBAC and BGA has taken place and we have agreed a joint approach and action to present to the CAA to try and get a remedy. I expect we will have this with the CAA at the start of next week.
    We will also be conducting a survey of our organisation members to try to get some accurate data to support our contention that many of our members will be negatively affected by the new system. The negative effects might include being unable to obtain any medical qualification, being further limited by a qualification than previously and paying a higher price for certification. All members will be asked to complete the survey as soon as it has been set up.
    Geoff

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    • Changes to the Self Declaration Medical system - 25 August 2016

      This sounds very positive - thanks Geoff!

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      • Changes to the Self Declaration Medical system - 25 August 2016

        Thank you and good luck.

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        • Changes to the Self Declaration Medical system - 25 August 2016

          Geoff Weighell wrote: a meeting between the BMAA, LAA, BBAC and BGA has taken place and we have agreed a joint approach and action to present to the CAA to try and get a remedy.
          He's being modest; while I have chased Geoff to take action, it's not been necessary at all. Geoff instigated the initial request for information, then he organised a meeting with the CAA medical person and went to Gatwick to have it out with her, then he invited a whole load of people to Deddington for a meeting to create a coordinated approach from the lighter aviation associations. Now he's setting up a survey.

          It is being made very clear to CAA that their latest move is not in the interest of many of our members and I am pleased to say our CEO is taking quick and positive action.

          Rob H
          Rob Hughes
          BMAA Member

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          • Changes to the Self Declaration Medical system - 25 August 2016

            Rob Hughes wrote:
            It is being made very clear to CAA that their latest move is not in the interest of many of our members.

            Rob H
            Clearly the implementation of the new system has been flawed. However, surely the base idea remains a good one.

            What must not happen is a return to the previous system, or anything like it - the GP must not be involved. My experience, and that of others I've spoken to, was that that non-specialist doctor is terrified of any liability that may result from them signing any paperwork like the previous model, and getting their signature used to be difficult, if not actually impossible.

            I had to visit a AME and get a LAPL certificate as my doctor simply refused to sign.
            Paul

            http://www.hunsdonmicrolightclub.info/

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            • Changes to the Self Declaration Medical system - 25 August 2016

              Rob Hughes wrote:
              Originally posted by Geoff Weighell
              a meeting between the BMAA, LAA, BBAC and BGA has taken place and we have agreed a joint approach and action to present to the CAA to try and get a remedy.
              He's being modest; while I have chased Geoff to take action, it's not been necessary at all. Geoff instigated the initial request for information, then he organised a meeting with the CAA medical person and went to Gatwick to have it out with her, then he invited a whole load of people to Deddington for a meeting to create a coordinated approach from the lighter aviation associations. Now he's setting up a survey.

              It is being made very clear to CAA that their latest move is not in the interest of many of our members and I am pleased to say our CEO is taking quick and positive action.

              Rob H
              Thanks to both Geoff & Rob for their good efforts on our behalf; I look forward to Geoff's survey: I for one am holding off committing to a new build until a viable solution is found. I'm fortunate that my GP is happy to sign the 'old' form, but I see difficulty in satisfying the new online ordeal, for mundane, non-relevant medical treatments I've received.

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              • Changes to the Self Declaration Medical system - 25 August 2016

                But the old 'GP' style form appears to be no longer available Phil. So no escape route there.

                Alan

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                • Changes to the Self Declaration Medical system - 25 August 2016

                  Just done a CAA search and the old 'GP form' has been removed.

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                  • Changes to the Self Declaration Medical system - 25 August 2016

                    Alan Batchelor wrote: But the old 'GP' style form appears to be no longer available Phil. So no escape route there.

                    Alan
                    So I gather, Alan.

                    My current one expires in February, but I've got nothing to fly at the moment. If I have to go beyond my GP, or 'driving equivalent' standard to get a medical tick in the box, I won't bother.

                    In the meantime, I'm rediscovering my misspent youth on 2 wheels, starting with a Norfolk Police 'Safe Rider' course, tomorrow and an attempt at an IAM test pass by Christmas.

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                    • Changes to the Self Declaration Medical system - 25 August 2016

                      Went on line, Completed the form and had a confirmation email back all within 10 minutes . Thank you !!! A very satisfied customer!! Bryan

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                      • Changes to the Self Declaration Medical system - 25 August 2016

                        Bryan Smy wrote: Went on line, Completed the form and had a confirmation email back all within 10 minutes . Thank you !!! A very satisfied customer!! Bryan
                        Yes me too. But it's only good for the lucky few of us who haven't had anything serious go wrong with them. If it stays as it is we will lose pilots simply because they develop a disqualifying condition (for example break an arm) and then once recovered would be required to go through the ridiculous and expensive rigmarole. (geoff - in your survey will you have a question that allows pilots who can current;y self declare to express strong views about their own future eiigibility?)
                        Mike

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                        • Changes to the Self Declaration Medical system - 25 August 2016

                          Maybe one of our Lawyer members could advise if this document, with the current wording, is unlawful under the The Equality Act 2010?

                          The probability of anyone being able to sign it without committing Purgery reduces exponentially with age due the words "or have had"...

                          As Mike points out, even a "fighting fit" teenager who does not ave any disqualifying reason, signs today, breaks a limb tomorrow... then once healed he has to go see an AME.... or commit Purgery

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                          • Changes to the Self Declaration Medical system - 25 August 2016

                            Tom Sheppard wrote: I expect that it was cockup rather than conspiracy.
                            I suspect that too.

                            Also, comparing the legal requirements for the medical:
                            http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/765/article/163/made

                            with the new form:
                            https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/modalapplication.aspx?catid=1&pagetype=65&appid=11 &mode=form&id=7493

                            there are, as already stated by others, big differences.

                            If you satisfy the conditions for the first, but fail the second, but you nevertheless sign the second form. you would seem to be under threat of prosecution, with the words:

                            "It is an offence under Article 256 of the Air Navigation Order 2016 to make, with intent to deceive, any false representation etc"

                            Yes you are making a false representation in terms of the second form, but you are not making it with the intention to deceive. You are intending to inform the CAA that you satisfy the legal medical requirements as stated in the first link, using the only method that the CAA are letting you use (the second link). So I think any attempt to prosecute you in that situation would fail for that reason.

                            I'm not suggesting that anyone try this, but it might be worth pointing this out to the CAA that their new form may not be legally binding for this reason, and give them limited options to prosecute "offenders".
                            I am not a lawyer, but I do take an interest in the law.

                            Insurance is another matter, but even then, if you satisfy the legal requirements for medical capability (first link), why should they have a problem with it?

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                            • Changes to the Self Declaration Medical system - 25 August 2016

                              I think the problem is Neil, that even if the insurance company was happy with your medical compliance with the ANO, it's the CAA that is responsible for saying whether you have a valid licence or not, and if they say you don't then your insurance is automatically invalid. It would take a very generous insurance company to pay out in those circumstances. However, I was thinking about this in relation to car insurance. I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong but the motor insurance industry does tend to pay out 3rd party claims even if through some technicality your insurance is invalid (whereas they will decline to pay for damage to your own property).
                              Mike

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                              • Changes to the Self Declaration Medical system - 25 August 2016

                                Mike,

                                I think it's a case of the government not allowing them to get away with non payment to third parties due to technicalities. If we could persuade the government to alter their legislation to cover third party costs of aviation related accidents as well then they wouldn't be able to decline payment.

                                Best regards,
                                XL's forever! Well, one of them anyway. It's all I can afford, not to mention the Raven and the Mini-Max. Oh, and I almost forgot the Spectrum as well :-)

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