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  • 582 vs 912

    I'm new to the sport and currently in the market to buy a flexwing. I was hoping for a half-share in a Quantum 912 or something similar but finding someone willing to sell a half or to go halfers with is proving more difficult than expected.
    Another option would be to go into soul ownership which I think funds can just stretch to but then I'm limited funds-wise as to what I can get.
    There is a Quantum 582 blue-top for sale which is, apparently, in good nick which I am seriously considering.
    I was ideally after a 4-stroke machine, partly out of familiarity to my instructors machine, and partly out of trying to future-proof my investment to not having to upgrade to a different machine in the near future.

    My question is, what could I do in a Quantum 912 that I couldn't do in a Quantum 582? Or, possibly, what wouldn't you do with a 582 that you would with a 912?

    Help this newbie out

  • #2
    Maybe I can partly answer your question but have not experiance of the actual machines themselves, but as far as the engines are concerned I can give you a list of pros & cons. I've no doubt that others can add to both.

    912
    Very expensive to buy
    lower fuel consuption
    longer service intervals
    Servicing seems to require a professional service agent (normaly at any rate). but requires less servicing to keep it relieable
    On many microlights it is heavy and can limit fuel load
    Spares are very, very expensive

    582 (bluetop with the beefed up crank)
    Heavier fuel burn, specialy if heavy handed on the throttle
    Cheaper to buy
    Lighter allowing a heavier load, although bear in mind that you'll need more fuel
    Parts cheaper
    Service intervals closer together but much easier for an owner to carry out themselves. Bear in mind that the recommended crank replacement at 300 hrs is a recommendation only. After that the frequency of the checks using the simple clearance tester needs to be stepped up, most cranks last far longer than that.

    I hope that helps a bit although I can't help with the aircraft specific questions. You will that the engine managment is a bit different to get the best from a two stroke but a word or two with an experianced owner and a bit of mechanical sympathy will go a long way

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    • #3
      Also dont be afraid to consider a Quantum with a Rotax 503. I own one and it is a great little plane. 2 Stroke and pretty bullet proof and easy to maintain. A 912 Quantum will take off and climb faster especially 2 up, but once in the Air most Quantums will cruise at around the same speed, 55 to 60 mph. I have owned mine for over 3 years and I am happy to keep flying my Quantum as is for another 2 or 3 years. You should be able to pick a good one up for about 3,500. When I do decide to upgrade I'll probably move towards a Quik or a GT450. Nice day here today. Guess what I am going to do after lunch?
      Last edited by Damien Minnock; 4th February 2018, 19:47.


      PILOTS are just PLANE people with a special AIR about them

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      • #4
        Ahh, the 503 my favourite engine as long as the aircraft isn't too heavy for 50hp. Unfortunatly Rotax stopped production, probably unable to make enough money out of it

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        • #5
          Costs and 582 v 912:

          If you look at total cost of ownership, then somewhere between 600 and 1,000 hours, depending on crank life, the 582 will become more costly to own.

          It's the cost of cranks, the extra fuel burn, and all the oil used.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Steve Uzochukwu View Post
            Costs and 582 v 912:

            If you look at total cost of ownership, then somewhere between 600 and 1,000 hours, depending on crank life, the 582 will become more costly to own.

            It's the cost of cranks, the extra fuel burn, and all the oil used.
            My blue top 582 quantum uses around 15 L/Hr cruising at 65 the 912 i fly with uses around 11 l/hr my crank is on condition so not being changed every 300 hrs . decoke every 150 hrs at the moment
            parts are cheap and all work done by me, the 912 will run you new carb rubbers regularly, if the ignition modules go thats a 1000 quid, cracked exhausts and engine mounts , so i think your 1000 hrs is a tad pessimistic Steve, really the only issue is the range which you get with the 912. also on average in this country most guys log around 100 hrs a year so thats 10 years of flying before the cost become an issue , buy which time most have moved on to a hotter ship. the hand start 582 is so light in roll and lovely responsive trikes to fly. my 2c (zim) worth

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            • #7
              On Keven's numbers, and presuming petrol to be 1.18 per litre, then 100 hours in the 582 would be 1950 in fuel (assuming 2T oil at 6 per litre), whereas the 912 would be 1298 on fuel - a saving of 652 per year. So Steve's lower end estimate of 6 years amounts to a saving 3912.

              I appreciate this doesn't take account of servicing costs and repairs.
              Last edited by Ian Garforth; 5th February 2018, 10:31.
              Currently learning to fly with the fabulous Great Western Airsports, and recording my experiences at The Tyranny Of Petty Things

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Keven Gaffney View Post
                My blue top 582 quantum uses around 15 L/Hr cruising at 65 the 912 i fly with uses around 11 l/hr my crank is on condition so not being changed every 300 hrs . decoke every 150 hrs at the moment
                parts are cheap and all work done by me, the 912 will run you new carb rubbers regularly, if the ignition modules go thats a 1000 quid, cracked exhausts and engine mounts , so i think your 1000 hrs is a tad pessimistic Steve, really the only issue is the range which you get with the 912. also on average in this country most guys log around 100 hrs a year so thats 10 years of flying before the cost become an issue , buy which time most have moved on to a hotter ship. the hand start 582 is so light in roll and lovely responsive trikes to fly. my 2c (zim) worth
                582 parts just as expensive as 912 parts really. Basic servicing costs are greater than 912, and 582's in my experience need odds and ends like the occasional piston, small end bearings and rings and intake rubbers, that balances out against the occasional costs of 912's - we have run around 20000 hours on 912's in company aircraft at Flylight, and have only had to change one set of ignition modules (overhauled at Carmo), two sprag clutches, and generally get 4- 500 hours or so from a carb rubber. We have had no engine failures resulting in outlandings. We have run two engine to double the published TBO. The worse one we have had 'only' went to 1.5 times TBO. The reliability and low cost of ownership has been outstanding really.

                Cranks in 582's mostly need changing at around 6-700hours in my experience, 500hours if you want to be more cautious. That's 1100 plus just in parts and really needs a trained mechanic to do the job - which will cost several hundred quid more. Earlier ones with B boxes need 100 hour gearbox servicing too.

                The other factor is that the cost differential is not lost - its still there when you sell, with used aircraft pretty much retaining the cost differential and being worth 4-5K more than a 582 counterpart. So that money comes back if you sell up and walk away.

                So if you can stretch to the extra initial outlay the 912 will save you money. And whilst you are using it you have more power, range and reliability.

                That said if you are on a budget and cant afford that initial outlay, a 582 machine will work very well and is a hell of a lot better than having no aeroplane!

                Paul

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                • #9
                  Hi Kai
                  I agree about the weight advantage of the 582. I've flown P&M's SSDR 582 Quik and it really does benefit from the lower weight of the 582 (versus my own 912 Quik).

                  What would I do with the 912 that I wouldn't do with the 582? - Long sea crossing. I wouldn't mind the channel but I'd think twice about going to the Faroe Is.

                  Laurie (2)

                  P.S. Remember the cruising speed of a Flexwing is dependent on the wing not the engine.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Keven Gaffney View Post
                    My blue top 582 quantum uses around 15 L/Hr cruising at 65 the 912 i fly with uses around 11 l/hr my crank is on condition so not being changed every 300 hrs . decoke every 150 hrs at the moment
                    I also have a 582, and the crank croaked at 380 hours, so it's on condition, but when it it blows, there's no arguing that you don't have to change it.

                    My maths is based on the cost of a new crank at between 300 and 600 hours, but even it runs to 750 hours, the 912 is still cheaper at 1,000 hours. It's fuel and oil burnt plus the cost of cranks that kills it.

                    just missed a few weeks flying with dead 582, and would have been longer if I'd stripped the engine in the freezing cold to replace the crank myself.

                    The vast majority of cost is parts not labour. Don't forget that the 2 stroke blows a lot of oil into the atmosphere, and there's a significant cost to that.

                    As I fly a good deal more than 100 hours a year over all the stuff I fly, I'd rather fly than mend a 2 stroke.

                    Here are the figures for a crank that lasts 500 hours every time:

                    Stage
                    Initial purchase
                    250 Hours
                    500 hours
                    750 hours
                    1000 hours
                    1250 hours
                    1500 hours
                    1750 hours
                    2000 hours
                    Rotax 912
                    16,200.00
                    19,225.00
                    22,250.00
                    25,275.00
                    28,500.00
                    31,525.00
                    34,550.00
                    37,575.00
                    40,800.00
                    Rotax 582
                    7,500.00
                    13,237.50
                    20,725.00
                    26,462.50
                    33,950.00
                    39,687.50
                    47,175.00
                    52,912.50
                    60,400.00

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Lots of terrifying figures here. Nothing that really helps, so here you go. Real Aviators fly anything they can get their hands on. Buy the 582 because you can afford it. Fly it. Be happy.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Whatever you buy a tip that can help is to study the log books before you realy look at the aircraft. It is too easy to fall in love with an aircraft and buy it almost regardless. Take an inspector to look, but check for yourself as well and you'll end up knowing your aircraft so much better.

                        Well worth reading service bulletins, and checking log books to see what has been done it will help you form an opinion on how the owners have looked after aircraft and engine. You'll find bulletins for most flexwing types on P&Ms site
                        http://www.pmaviation.co.uk/
                        Look under "Downloads"
                        Info on Rotax engines you can find here
                        http://www.rotax-owner.com/en/suppor...vice-bulletins.

                        Good Luck with whatever you go for and as Tom says "Fly it. Be Happy"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by tomshep View Post
                          Real Aviators fly anything they can get their hands on. Buy the 582 because you can afford it. Fly it. Be happy.
                          I'm not worried about whether anyone thinks I'm a real aviator or not. Having spent four weeks grounded, getting the engine off and back on and the crank replacement, I can say from experience that there's a contradiction between flying, being happy and 582 ownership, especially when fixing it in the freezing cold.

                          It would be nice if the next generation ATV/snowmobile engine Kev's playing with got wider acceptance and showed the door to the larger two strokes. It would be better for environment too, as we'd then stop blowing significant amounts of two stroke oil into the atmosphere.

                          Don't get me wrong, the smaller two strokes like the Corsair, Polini and Cisco are modern marvels of lightness, and easy to fix. They are key to SSDR & sub-70.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Bump...

                            Originally posted by Steve Uzochukwu View Post
                            ... snip ...
                            Here are the figures for a crank that lasts 500 hours every time:

                            (Table at http://forums.bmaa.org/showthread.ph...l=1#post129220)
                            So the break even, by that estimate, is between 500 and 750 hours if you are buying new. For many microlight pilots that could be more than their whole flying career over many years.

                            Of course if you are buying second hand the equation changes. It also depends if you pay for maintenance or you treat it as part of the hobby (or, in my case, have a hubby who treats it thus ).
                            The pilot formerly posting as MadamBreakneck
                            R examiner and TST pilot.
                            and now a Tai Chi instructor

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                            • #15
                              But the resale value is also much higher ( often as much difference as the cost differential new) so you get a bigger payback when it’s time to sell.

                              It’s definitely win win - if you can raise the cash in the first instance..

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